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     Admin (Admin) (38.136.62.186) Rating: |
Many people think that if they place their faith in Christ, they will have to commit intellectual suicide. They don't realize that Christ died to take away their sins, not their brains. Christians don't deposit their brains at the coat-check window and pick them back up on their way to heaven. You can go to two extremes when it comes to the subjects of faith and reason.The first is to say that faith needs no reason: we just trust God without reservation then leap off the high board into the dark. But the fact is that Christianity does have a basis in history and in logic. There is evidence that Jesus was an actual historical person. The New Testament writings,the writings of Josephus and other first-century historians document this. The second extreme is to say that if an idea is not logical, if it has no basis in rational thinking, then it has no place in my belief system. If you follow that thinking to its conclusion, then you have to throw out a lot of the miracles and healings in Scripture since logically people do not rise from the dead, logically the crust of leprosy does not fall off the body of its victim at the touch of a hand, and legs crippled for nearly forty years do not unhinge and become new because someone tells them to get up. This is the balance people need to keep in mind when they say they are too rational to have faith, when they say they won't believe in something unless they can see it. Some have even said, "Cliffe, I wish I had your faith."Sometimes people mean this sincerely, but often they really mean, "Cliffe, I cannot be so stupid, so intellectually naive to believe all the superstition and garbage about God that you've apparently swallowed." In a way that issue is moot. All of us believe in things we can't see. All of us place our trust in things that are not plainly evident. We believe in team spirit, patriotism, love, and goodness. Although we can't reach out and grasp any of these values, and though we so often see them misused and flaunted for selfish gain, we still believe they exist and often believe they have value. Every one of us has faith. Every one of us believes in someone or something that gives us direction in life, that gives us security. Peter Schaeffer wrote a play titled Equus. In the play a young boy begins to worship a picture of Jesus hanging over his bed. The boy's father, who is a devout atheist, rips the picture off the wall and replaces it with a photograph of a horse. The young boy, needing meaning and purpose, begins to worship the picture of the horse. The father gets more upset and sends the boy to a psychiatrist to have this fixation removed. As the psychiatrist begins talking to the boy, he gains some understanding that was not apparent to the father. The boy does not have a fixation on Christ or a fixation on horses; the psychiatrist realizes that the picture gives the boy meaning, purpose and direction. Schaeffer's point is clear. Whatever motivates us defines who we are. Live for pleasure-you are a hedonist. Live to amass wealth-you are a materialist. Live for personal happiness and fulfillment-you are a narcissist. Live to pursue knowledge-you are a rationalist. The British writer G. K Chesterton said that when a person stops believing in God, he does not believe in nothing. He will believe in anything. The question I put to those who tell me they won't believe unless it's rational is, "What is the object of your faith? Whom do you trust?" If the object of your faith is not trustworthy, it is not reliable. Real faith in something or someone that is trustworthy is not blind. Real faith will include the evidence to buttress it, and personal commitment. The faith of a Christian is based on the trustworthiness of Jesus Christ. Jesus stated, "The Son of man did not come to be served, but to serve,and to give his life as a ransom for many" (Mt 20:28). Jesus gave us the evidence to back up his words; he consistently assumed the posture of a servant. Even at the very end of his public ministry, on the very night he was betrayed, he assumed the posture of the lowliest servant and washed his disciples' feet. One day Peter asked Jesus, " 'Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?' Jesus answered,'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times' " (Mt 18:21-22).He spoke of complete and utter forgiveness. Jesus gave us the evidence to back up his words. As he was bleeding and dying on the cross, his enemies taunted him. His response? He prayed, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." He proved his trustworthiness; he proved his evidence was sound, and he asks us to trust him on the basis of that evidence. A few people carry their inquiry even further. They say, "I must know absolutely that Christ alone is the truth before I can believe in him."This can be intellectual arrogance carried to an extreme. It requires that God give enough evidence of his existence to satisfy an insatiable intellect.This kind of arrogance demands that God meet every one of my requirements before I believe in him. Suppose I demanded that my wife, Sharon, risk her life for me repeatedly to prove her love for me. Once would never be enough. The insatiability of my desire to know absolutely would be cruel manipulation, not intellectual integrity. Yet many of us do exactly the same thing with God. We continually deny his past trustworthiness and say, "Now, what have you done for me lately?"This kind of wheeling and dealing is not intellectual prowess. It is cowardly manipulation. It also separates the proud from the humble. The proud say,"God, you meet these requirements, then I'll decide whether or not I want to believe in you." The humble person will look for evidence, discover it, and trust that if God was true to his word yesterday, he will be true to it today. Confronting what I feel is intellectual dishonesty is never easy. It means having the discernment to know whether or not the intellectual arguments people offer are sincere. All of us need help in this area. If I confess my own intellectual and moral insincerity before God, I will be one step closer to being the kind of authentic witness God wants me to be. | ||
| Phil (Phil) (38.136.62.186) Rating: |
Great summary Cliffe! | ||
| Timothy Campen Advanced Member Username: tcampen Post Number: 333 Registered: 09-2003 Rating: N/A |
As Episcopal Allen Jones, Dean of Grace Cathedral, San Francisco, puts it, “The opposite of faith is not doubt. The opposite of faith is certainty.” We do not need faith for those things of which we are certain. Cliffe does a good job attempting to make faith the product of reason (because that's what appeals to his college audiences), but it is ultimately a play words and logical fallacies. The entire premise presupposes the accracy(of a particular translation and interpretation) of an errant Bible. This presupposition requires leaps of faith before you can even get to the question he is attempting to answer. If the opposite of faith is indeed certainty, then Cliffe clearly attempts to destroy faith by showing how "rational" it is when based on his interpretation of the bible. If it really were so well supported, so logical, and so rational to accept the bible as he does, then what purpose does faith have a all. The answer is simple: none. Faith serves no use when the bible is so "trustworthy." That is not to say one cannot be both rational and have faith. It only requires understanding the two in the proper context. I do no need faith that the sun will come up tomorrow. However, I may need some faith that I will be around to see it. Faith answers the questions logic cannot. For example, what happens to us (spritually) after we die is not a question suited for an analysis based on evidence, logic and reason. Those tools cannot address issues of the supernatural, for the very definition of the supernatual goes beyond such tools. But we can have faith about such matters, and this is where I very clearly depart from Cliffe. I don't find the bible to have a greater trustworthiness on this issue than any other spiritual or religious text. I know his arguments, and I do not find them persuasive. I have researched and analysed the issue myself, and came to a different conclusion - which is remarkably common with issues of sprirituality. Again, this is due to the nature of the subject matter itself. It is inherently subjective, like one's taste in fruit. (How do you really argue an orange tasts better than an apple?) The greatest evidence that faith, religion and spirituality are subjective is in the immense diversity of belief around the world. One need only look at the thousands of Christian denominations (and tens of thousands of independent churches) who have minor to material differences in biblical interpretation, to see the bible is not the proper subject of an "objective" interpretation. It cannot be done, and is not done as a result. Not anywhere. So have faith. Lots of faith. Just keep in the right context. | ||
| amy Intermediate Member Username: amylc Post Number: 159 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
okay. Where have you been. I haven't read anything from you in a while. Thought you got mad and left. | ||
| amy Intermediate Member Username: amylc Post Number: 160 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
If I spend my life in pursuet of spiritual knowledge, growth, and understanding. Does that make me spiritual? It is probably better than spending my life as a hedonist, materialist, narcisist, or rationalist. Whatever I use to help me be in communion with God is acceptable. A closet is a good tool and could be considered, by some, the only good tool. When one is in communion with God, one will know it and understand the second comming of the Christ. | ||
| Timothy Campen Advanced Member Username: tcampen Post Number: 334 Registered: 09-2003 Rating: N/A |
Amy, I'm just cruising through, and I never get mad. And I appreciate your post. | ||
| Kernal John Sanderz New member Username: kernalsanderz Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2006 Rating: N/A |
Believeing in Jesus is irrational because you cannot divide by zero and there is nothing better than Jesus. So if there is nothing better than Jesus, Jesus/0 = irrational. | ||
| smae Junior Member Username: thisisnotanexit Post Number: 8 Registered: 06-2005 Rating: N/A |
check these sites out http://www.gotquestions.org http://www.reasons.org they answer a lot of those questions http://wwww.reasons.org | ||
| Wendy J.G. Member Username: wendyg Post Number: 72 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
see http://www.godsci.org/gs/chri/testimony/... - an explanation of an atheists view of atheism which does cover views that Christians are probably irrational | ||
| David Camacho New member Username: rdcamacho Post Number: 2 Registered: 05-2006 Rating: N/A |
God Bless you all. For some of us, you make our point for us, when you siad "there is nothing better than Jesus". At the same time you equivulate Jesus with the number 0. Which by the way builds no primiss for irrationality. I pray you seek Gods wisdom in this area sencerly. Jesus Loves You Kernal. |
