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For thousands of years philosophers and theologians have struggled with the classical problem of why an all-loving and all-powerful God would allow evil to exist. In all that time they have never come up with a complete answer. Neither will I be able to answer that question completely. But as Christians we must think about this issue and, I think, we can approach an answer. First, some have tried to solve the problem of evil by simply saying God doesn't exist. Evil and good are simply two aspects of reality that war against one another. But if there is no God, there is no Creator to create the ultimate values of good and evil. And if there is no good and evil,the problem of suffering is gone too. If God does not exist, our moral indignation over what we think is wrong is simply personal prejudice, subjective feeling.Bertrand Russell said, "There is no God, therefore there is no good and evil." But deep within us something cries out against the murder of innocent people, the abuse of children, the rape of women. We know these are wrong because our consciences rise up against them. The conscience is actually a gift from the Creator who is just and who defines good and evil. The fact that a conscience exists indicates therefore, that there is a conscience giver. For without a conscience-giver, without God,we couldn't tell what is good and what isn't. In fact, just before Bertrand Russell died, he said, 'To love is good. To hate is evil." Isn't it amazing that we as human beings have an innate ability and desire to distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong? Don't make the mistake of using moral indignation as an argument against God's existence. For if there is no God, there is no authority to define what is absolutely right and what is absolutely wrong. Suddenly the individual or society becomes the authority. Good quickly becomes that which is expedient, easiest to do, or economically beneficial. One society says racism or a reign of terror is best for the nation. Another society concludes that equality and freedom are just values. If there is no God to define justice and morality, each society is correct for itself.Everything is relative. In Marcel Proust's Remembrance of Things Past, a lady named Oriane must decide how to spend an evening. She can either sit by the bed of a dying man or go to dine in town. She has no foundation for morality. There is no choice between good and evil. The choice is simply between what she wants to do and what she doesn't want to do. She chooses to go to dine in town because it takes less effort. There is a type of logic to her decision.She has limited resources in a short life. Why waste them on a dying man? Why not seize the evening for herself? Jesus Christ steps into this cruel cycle of relativity and points to the values of love and compassion created by God to be enjoyed by men and women.Christ delivers us from the superficiality of a life of expediency and ushers us into a life committed to justice and truth. Deep within each one of us are the fragments of a conscience that long to embrace the values God created for us to enjoy. Second, Genesis 1 clearly communicates that when God created, all his creation was very good. God did not create evil, suffering or death. He created us to enjoy himself, each other, and to celebrate his gift of life. Genesis 3 is the tragic record of how man and woman chose to reject God. The Bible, history books and the morning newspaper record how an unmeasurable amount of evil has followed in the wake of human rebellion against God. The vast majority of this carnage is a direct result of human choice. A student at the University of North Carolina protested, "Where is God in Ethiopia? Does he not hear the screams of babies as they starve to death?Why has God done this?" I responded, "How can you blame God for starving babies in Ethiopia when the best-selling books in the United States are on dieting, on how to take the extra fat off? It is not God's fault that people are starving today. The earth produces enough food right now to give every person 3,000 calories a day. The problem is that some of us hoard for ourselves so that others of us go to bed starving at night. It is a cop-out to blame God for human irresponsibility. If a person gets drunk, drives his car across the median, and sends your friend to an early grave, will you blame God? Do you blame God for Hitler's seven million murders? That would be escapism.The vast majority of human evil and suffering is a direct result of human irresponsibility." God created us to love him and each other. I deeply love my wife, Sharon.Suppose all I had to do to hear her say, "I love you, Cliffe,"was to push a button in her back and out it would come. That wouldn't be love. That wouldn't be a relationship. It would be a programmed response from a computer. A relationship demands love. Love requires a choice. It cannot be forced. God created us in his image. That means when God commands,we can obey or disobey. God gave me a hand. I can use this hand to pick up a gun and shoot you or I can use this hand to feed hungry people. God gave me a mind. I can use my mind to build a bomb or to find a cure for cancer. If I blast people into oblivion and then blame God, I am an escape artist. God did not force me to travel down either path. I chose to abuse the gift of a mind that God gave me. Evil is one of the consequences of the freedom God has given us. I preach Christ because I want people to use their freedom to choose good. Third, in light of the fact that human beings rebelled against God and created enormous suffering, why doesn't God punish us now? C. S. Lewis said, 'The question is not 'Why do the innocent suffer?' but rather Why don't we all suffer more?' " At the time of Noah, God judged people by sending a flood because every inclination of their thoughts was only evil all the time (Gen 6:5). God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of the people's wickedness. God used the Jewish nation to judge the Canaanite nations for sacrificing their babies and indulging in temple prostitution. Then God used the Assyrian and Babylonian nations to judge the Jewish nation for its idolatry.When some people told Jesus about those whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices and about the eighteen who died when the tower of Siloam fell on them, Jesus replied, "Do you think these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish" (Lk 13:1-5). Jesus promised to return and to justly judge the peoples of the earth. Christ will destroy sin, evil and injustice when he comes in power and great glory.Why doesn't God end all evil now? Why doesn't Christ end human history now?The Bible reveals, "The Lord . . . is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Pet 3:9).I do not know when or why God chooses to judge and punish people today.But I do know that he is patiently waiting for us to humble ourselves before him and to receive his forgiveness and eternal life. Now is the time to choose. When he returns, judgment will begin. Fourth, at the University of Maine a young man painfully asked, "My younger sister fell on the concrete next to a pool. She broke some bones.When she was just about healed, she fell again and broke some more bones.Her bones were nearly mended when she stumbled and broke another bone. What's the story? Is God playing a sadistic game with my little sister?" Babies are born with multiple birth defects. Genetic disorders plague many of us. An earthquake levels a city, and thousands lose their lives in the rubble. The Bible teaches that there is not always a one-to-one correspondence between sin and suffering. When we human beings told God to shove off, he partially honored our request. Nature began to revolt. The earth was cursed.Genetic breakdown and disease began. Pain and death became part of the human experience. The good creation was marred. We live in an unjust world. We are born into a world made chaotic and unfair by a humanity in revolt against its Creator. Fifth, the book of Job reveals there is a personal being named Satan who works to bring pain, disaster and death into the lives of people. If a person suffers and is angry with God, frequently that is misplaced anger. God is the giver of life. Satan is the destroyer, the one who tears down life. Often pain is not the direct result of sin but rather the handiwork of Satan. Paul, for example, wrote to the Corinthians, "There was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me" (2 Cor 12:7). Sixth, in Jesus, God stepped into this world marred by human rebellion and the destruction of Satan. When Jesus was confronted by pain and disease,he brought healing through the use of a miracle. He did not use his supernatural power to feather his nest but rather to heal the sick and raise the dead. Jesus commanded his followers not only to trust him in all circumstances but also to love those who bring them pain. Jesus said, "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.... Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Mt 5:39, 44). This type of trust in God and love for all people produces Christlike character. Paul writes, "Suffering produces perseverance; Perseverance, character"(Rom 5:3-4). C. S. Lewis writes, "God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world." The amazing truth taught in Scripture is that God can take suffering and pain, and produce something good and beautiful. Many people have told me how God used pain and tragedy to wake them out of spiritual lethargy and bring them to a point of decision for Christ. Aleksandr Solzhenitsvn writes, "Bless you, prison, for having been in my life." The prison wasn't good. But God could bring good out of it. The question each one of us must answer is, "Will I allow suffering to drive me to Christ for salvation and the power to be Christlike in character, or will I allow suffering to drive me into bitterness and despair?" Seventh, the great news of the Bible is that God cares so deeply for hurting people that he has provided the solution for suffering and death. Jesus commands us to be agents of compassion and justice in a decaying world.To fight pain and suffering is not simply an option for a follower of Christ.It is an expression of his love for God. John writes, "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth" (1 Jn 3:16-18). Followers of Christ use science, medicine, law, business, education and any other tool to alleviate suffering, prolong life, promote justice, and enhance the quality of life. The great news of the Bible is that God is a suffering God. He suffered in Jesus Christ. God is not a philosophical notion floating in space. God is a personal being who became man in Jesus of Nazareth. He died on a cross to provide the ultimate solution for suffering and death. His solution is forgiveness and eternal life. Christ rose from the dead. Over a period of forty days he appeared to over five hundred people. He ascended to his Father in heaven. He promised to come again to destroy all evil, suffering and death. He will transform this chaotic, unjust world into an orderly, just world. "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Rev 21:4). If there is no all-knowing, all powerful God who stands at the end of human history, justice shall never ultimately win.The wrongs will never be made right. Evil, suffering and death triumph. But Christ taught that history was ultimately God's story. The question is, "Have I accepted God's solution to the problem of suffering? Have I accepted Christ?" I cannot hide behind the question,'Why does God allow suffering?" But I can embrace God's solution for suffering by putting my trust in Jesus Christ for eternal life and allowing Christ to thrust me into a hurting world to administer his love, forgiveness and healing. | ||
| John Dill New member Username: rainbow_walking Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: |
Cliff: For thousands of years philosophers and theologians have struggled with the classical problem of why an all-loving and all-powerful God would allow evil to exist. In all that time they have never come up with a complete answer. rw: Wonder why god has not deemed it particularly essential that one be provided? Cliff: Neither will I be able to answer that question completely. But as Christians we must think about this issue and, I think, we can approach an answer. rw: An answer...or the truth? Is it more important to simply have a plausibly sounding response or a verifiable true explanation? Cliff: First, some have tried to solve the problem of evil by simply saying God doesn't exist. Evil and good are simply two aspects of reality that war against one another. rw: But that doesn't solve the problem of evil. It only casts the believers rationalizations into a critical light to examine those rationalizations for truth-value and consistency to their god claims. The problem of evil will likely forever remain a problem that man must confront on a case-by-case basis. Is it reasonable to assume there may be an answer to why evil and suffering exists that would somehow reduce or eliminate the problem? I don't see it and would welcome any argumentation that would lead us to have confidence in such a conclusion. Cliff: But if there is no God, there is no Creator to create the ultimate values of good and evil. rw: What are these ultimate values? What is good and what is evil? What standard are we to base these normative assignments on and why? How do we arbitrate disagreements from such a standard if it's disconnected from man's realities and based on a book who's constituent believers ever rarely agree has a consistent meaning? Are there elements of god, as the standard, that mitigate against his being a standard for what is good and evil to mankind? Should the standard be predicated on man's existence, his happiness, his emotions, his social or political awareness, what is the bottomline standard upon which all men can confidently look to as the ultimate measure for determining the moral quality of human behavior? Is a god's standard any more or less arbitrary than a man's? Why? What is it about an alleged god standard for morality that makes it better than or superior to man's establishment of a standard? How can any bottom line be established unless a god's ultimate plan is clearly defined? If that ultimate plan is finally realized beyond the grave, how does that engender human confidence that the standard will guide man in this life? Doesn't it devolve to this life being inconsequential? Cliff: And if there is no good and evil,the problem of suffering is gone too. If God does not exist, our moral indignation over what we think is wrong is simply personal prejudice, subjective feeling.Bertrand Russell said, "There is no God, therefore there is no good and evil." But deep within us something cries out against the murder of innocent people, the abuse of children, the rape of women. We know these are wrong because our consciences rise up against them. rw: Yet the consciences of the perpetraters did not...why? If god is the standard, why does his being the standard not mitigate against continued depravity? Does god enforce his standard? Why are men charged with the responsibility of enforcing a standard they did not establish? Why does god not initiate divine retribution against those who violate his standard now, in this life, rather than appealing to some after-life retribution which has little or no power to persuade men to comply with his standard? Why do even believers and clerics fall into morally bankrupt behavior in spite of appealing to and preaching this standard? Why is it so powerless and why should we embrace a powerless standard? Cliff: The conscience is actually a gift from the Creator who is just and who defines good and evil. The fact that a conscience exists indicates therefore, that there is a conscience giver. For without a conscience-giver, without God,we couldn't tell what is good and what isn't. In fact, just before Bertrand Russell died, he said, 'To love is good. To hate is evil." Isn't it amazing that we as human beings have an innate ability and desire to distinguish between good and evil, right and wrong? rw: Why is that amazing? Is it amazing that humans want to live and to attain a lifestyle they can live with? Is it amazing that humans are capable of learning that slavery is not morally sustainable in spite of a god's stamp of approval on the practice in the OT and complete silence on the matter in the NT? Must everything humans do be so amazing as to warrent an assignment of having been enabled to do so by some god? I find it amazing that believers have such a negative opinion of humanity and the power of the human intellect that any beneficial accomplishments achieved must be handed over to god as their author, while all negative human endeavors are layed squarely on the shoulders of man. It's hypocrisy thru and thru. Why is god belief contingent on an additional belief that man is a depraved being born into depravity and destined to live a depraved life unless he appeals to a god for rescue? When you start man off in the red, and teach this doctrine as truth for thousands of years, why act shocked when man behaves consistently to that which he's been indoctrinated with since the early bronze age? Cliff: Don't make the mistake of using moral indignation as an argument against God's existence. rw: And don't make the mistake of using it as a justification to believe in imaginary deities either. Cliff: For if there is no God, there is no authority to define what is absolutely right and what is absolutely wrong. rw: Yes there is...man is the authority and always has been. Just because it's easier to deflect the criticism and mis-trust by shuffling it off on a non-existent deity is no rational warrent to deny the obvious. Man's nature as man is the rightful authoritative foundation for all moral issues. A god has never, and will never know what it means to be a man, especially if that god is an eternal being. Claiming he dwelt among us in the form of a man does not extract him from the temporary suicide he comitted on the cross. Man cannot kill a god defined as the christian god is defined. Three days in a grave is not equivalent to human death. I see no evidence in the gospels that this myth endured any abnormal suffering equivalent to a child born with down's syndrome or other such debilitating disease. He seems to have lived a fairly indulgant life being tended to by followers and an entourage of disciples and always had access to the miraculous whenever things got bumpy. This is not a role model consistent to man's condition and nature as man. It is, however, a pattern that I see the clerics enjoying quite frequently as they build their private kingdoms among us from our gullibility and generosity. Cliff: Suddenly the individual or society becomes the authority. Good quickly becomes that which is expedient, easiest to do, or economically beneficial. rw: Inter-subjectivity is not a foundation for morals. Only rationally defined, empirically devised morals consistent to man's nature as man qua man are the proper foundation of all subsequent moral claims. Objectivism is the only proper way to establish such a foundation. A proper moral foundation will never exist until man weans himself from the twin fuzzy subjective concepts of good and evil. Only "right and wrong" are properly conceptual mechanisms for establishing an objective moral foundation. Right and wrong are empirically verifiable concepts, via error reduction, that provide the clearest most direct path to a moral system that serves all men and not just the religious elite. That is how man came to realize the immorality of slavery and genocide...not by revelation. Cliff: One society says racism or a reign of terror is best for the nation. Another society concludes that equality and freedom are just values. If there is no God to define justice and morality, each society is correct for itself.Everything is relative. rw: But only that society built on a moral foundation properly aligned with man's nature will survive, as has been historically proven time and again. There are basic scientifically verifiable presuppositions consistent to man's nature that work for the benefit of any society that adapts those presuppositions into its moral and legal code. Any deviation produces a disfunctional society that ultimately crumbles, implodes or becomes too weak to resist aggression from without. A touchy/feely religious foundation has never withstood the pressures and that is why it ultimately always devolves into violence, aggression and destruction. It begins by holding man's rightful moral status in ransom to its professional mouth pieces who damn man at birth and demand he follow procedures that further erode his self confidence and self esteem, both crippling and dismantling his only rational faculties for devising a cultural setting condusive to moral certitude. Man is born a moral being and no god or religious order has the right or authority to hold what is man's by birth for ransom. This atrocity begins man's life as less than a zero. Claiming that man was created in the image of an invisible, imageless god, does not compensate man for the theft of his moral status at birth. Offering him an image of a mythological figure who walks the earth solving all its problems with magic is not a healthy or realistically consistent role model for man's condition in a world that does not capitulate to man's wishful thinking and prayers for miracles. Man's conscious mind does not invent or create reality but only identifies it. These are facts that all the praying in all of eternity will never change. Cliff: In Marcel Proust's Remembrance of Things Past, a lady named Oriane must decide how to spend an evening. She can either sit by the bed of a dying man or go to dine in town. She has no foundation for morality. There is no choice between good and evil. The choice is simply between what she wants to do and what she doesn't want to do. She chooses to go to dine in town because it takes less effort. There is a type of logic to her decision.She has limited resources in a short life. Why waste them on a dying man? Why not seize the evening for herself? rw: And what is wrong with this? The moral code Cliff is defending begins with the irrational assumption that man's life is not his own and belongs to all other claims against it irrespective of his conscious awareness that he also has desires and needs. This bankrupt moral system is predicated on holding man's moral status hostage to the needs and whims of the undefinable other or they or whoever appears to have a greater need. In a proper objective moral system the women is a moral being regardless of her decision. If she values the man's final moments of company she is perfectly morally justified in staying by his bedside and proudly proclaiming her selfish decision was based on her human ability to decide what is valuable to her. If she values dining out above staying with the dying man she is equally as moral in doing so because that man's need is not an absolute moral blank check against her existence that holds her moral status for ransom if she refuses. Would you want a women to remain by your side under such conditions because she preferred to be there or because she was emotionally blackmailed into being there by a bankrupt moral system? What value could you possibly gain from her only being there because of the latter? I personally could not die in peace under such conditions. But this is the root of a god based moral quicksand that chains man's desire to live autonomously to the irredeemable needs of the masses. Cliff: Jesus Christ steps into this cruel cycle of relativity and points to the values of love and compassion created by God to be enjoyed by men and women.Christ delivers us from the superficiality of a life of expediency and ushers us into a life committed to justice and truth. Deep within each one of us are the fragments of a conscience that long to embrace the values God created for us to enjoy. rw: There is nothing superficial about the life of a person with the courage to live it consistently. There is nothing in such a courage that prevents such a person from giving of their time to causes of their love and values. There is a huge gap between doing so because that is what you choose to do and being made to feel you must do so irregardless of what you would choose otherwise. There is a universe of difference between declaring that only one way is moral and all others superficial. It forces you to choose between your life or your morality. This is a disgusting artificial choice. Man is capable of building a far better life when he retains both equally; when one is not played off the other to solicit behavior from him he'd rather not indulge. Yet that is the bottom line of Cliff's moral code that he professes to advance in the name of love. His form of love breeds only contempt and a degradation of man's nature as a man. I do not love all people indescriminately nor does Cliff. Cliff would not likely sacrifice the life of his family to save the lives of strangers whom he does not know or value. If he did he could not rightfully claim to love his family. Cliff may certainly risk his life to protect the values of his family from would-be assailants. This is not morally necessary but pragmatically prudent. If Cliff wishes to dedicate his life to helping the unfortunate Cliff certainly should be afforded that right and commended for doing so...if that is Cliff's selfish desire. If Cliff thinks this gives him a right to declare that all who do not share his desire are immoral or amoral, he has crossed an invisible line and entered the realm of the moral bandit. Cliff: Second, Genesis 1 clearly communicates that when God created, all his creation was very good. God did not create evil, suffering or death. He created us to enjoy himself, each other, and to celebrate his gift of life. Genesis 3 is the tragic record of how man and woman chose to reject God. The Bible, history books and the morning newspaper record how an unmeasurable amount of evil has followed in the wake of human rebellion against God. The vast majority of this carnage is a direct result of human choice. rw: Genesis clearly depicts a god who set man up to make the only rational choice available. It was god, according to this myth, that created all the ingredients to man's choice, including the choice and the consequences. When man chose to comply god further allowed a creature he created to enter the picture and induce additional pressure on man to make a choice. I would very much like to debate and dismantle Cliff's overly simplistic interpretation of Genesis if he's game. Cliff: A student at the University of North Carolina protested, "Where is God in Ethiopia? Does he not hear the screams of babies as they starve to death?Why has God done this?" I responded, "How can you blame God for starving babies in Ethiopia when the best-selling books in the United States are on dieting, on how to take the extra fat off? It is not God's fault that people are starving today. The earth produces enough food right now to give every person 3,000 calories a day. The problem is that some of us hoard for ourselves so that others of us go to bed starving at night. It is a cop-out to blame God for human irresponsibility. If a person gets drunk, drives his car across the median, and sends your friend to an early grave, will you blame God? Do you blame God for Hitler's seven million murders? That would be escapism.The vast majority of human evil and suffering is a direct result of human irresponsibility." rw: And it is astoundingly amazing how Cliff rightfully defines man's responsibilities in the face of suffering out of one side of his mouth, while wrongfully attributing every human effort made to address those responsibilities to be the result of a god inspired moral system. Especially when that moral system does not explicitly call for man to address suffering by his own efforts but declares man must look to god for the ways and means of addressing the causes. And even more blatantly hypocritical when claiming this god created everything very good and man mucked it up. If it was Cliff's god who created man with the necessity to eat and failed to provide man with a worldwide environment conducive to fulfilling that necessity, how is man at fault? Did man invent droughts, floods, natural catastrophes and diseases that eviscerate many nation's abilities to secure the food they need? Is this his god's idea of very good? Yet it is man's responsibility to do what he can to assist those living under such conditions and the implied message is that man is obligated morally to do so; that if he enjoys a meal otherwise he is not a moral being. Cliff: God created us to love him and each other. I deeply love my wife, Sharon.Suppose all I had to do to hear her say, "I love you, Cliffe,"was to push a button in her back and out it would come. That wouldn't be love. That wouldn't be a relationship. It would be a programmed response from a computer. A relationship demands love. Love requires a choice. It cannot be forced. God created us in his image. That means when God commands,we can obey or disobey. rw: Relationships demand mutual respect...that is all. Anything more that comes from this is a matter of each individuals autonomous choice. No man or god has a right to demand love. Cliff's relationship with his wife is not predicated on a demand for love but on a mutual agreement that they share by valuing one another's company and making the effort to express that value. But Cliff's wife does not demand Cliff love her in spite of her lifelong absence from the immediacy of his daily life. She does not expect him to love her on the basis of claim's made in a book nor does she expect him to sustain his love on imaginary converstaions and requests for benefits made via prayer. Cliff: God gave me a hand. I can use this hand to pick up a gun and shoot you or I can use this hand to feed hungry people. God gave me a mind. I can use my mind to build a bomb or to find a cure for cancer. If I blast people into oblivion and then blame God, I am an escape artist. God did not force me to travel down either path. I chose to abuse the gift of a mind that God gave me. Evil is one of the consequences of the freedom God has given us. I preach Christ because I want people to use their freedom to choose good. rw: Cliff appears to be unaware of the biblical claims that demand obedience and are anything but supportive of Cliff's ideas that his god promotes autonomous choice. Paul clearly teaches that God chose who would be saved before men were even sinners; before the foundation of the world. The contradictory doctrines that have emerged from Cliff's source, the bible, have led to more confusion and incoherence than if such a book had never been invented. His Armenian interpretation that man has a choice in such matters hangs by a tattered thread and makes salvation, from his god's perspective, a roll of the dice. Yet Cliff likes to claim that the atheist's worldview extolls the vice of gambling. He is inconsistent in applying his rationale. Cliff: Third, in light of the fact that human beings rebelled against God and created enormous suffering, why doesn't God punish us now? C. S. Lewis said, 'The question is not 'Why do the innocent suffer?' but rather Why don't we all suffer more?' " At the time of Noah, God judged people by sending a flood because every inclination of their thoughts was only evil all the time (Gen 6:5). God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of the people's wickedness. God used the Jewish nation to judge the Canaanite nations for sacrificing their babies and indulging in temple prostitution. Then God used the Assyrian and Babylonian nations to judge the Jewish nation for its idolatry.When some people told Jesus about those whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices and about the eighteen who died when the tower of Siloam fell on them, Jesus replied, "Do you think these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish" (Lk 13:1-5). rw: And Cliff commits the final absurdity of circular reasoning. His god is clearly as prejudicial in administering justice as he is in making his existence and purpose known conclusively. A world in which a god consistently enforces his moral edicts would be far less problematic than one where no such god exists. What Cliff, and most believers, fail to consider is how easy it is to compose a history of a people or nation and then over-lay religious explanations for all the detrimental events that occurred. In fact, all the nations around Israel used this same pattern and employed shamans and priests of their religions to be their court reporters. If a loving god truly existed, who had only man's best interests at heart, there is no reason why his consistent enforcement of this alleged superior moral system would be detrimental to man. A god would surely know how to administer justice equitably. But Cliff, and his contemporaries, invest all their eggs into the basket of autonomous choice, while proclaiming biblical events that clearly denograte such autonomy by portraying a vengeful god who utterly decimates his opponents arbitrarily and at his whim. The Amelakite debacle is one such instance. Commanding his bronze age tribe of semi-nomadic warriors to obliterate a tribe of people, men, women and children, for offenses committed four generations prior to the command hardly inspires us with any confidence that his moral fabric is any tighter woven than our own. And this AFTER having inspired Moses to issue a commandment not to kill. Cliff: Jesus promised to return and to justly judge the peoples of the earth. Christ will destroy sin, evil and injustice when he comes in power and great glory.Why doesn't God end all evil now? Why doesn't Christ end human history now?The Bible reveals, "The Lord . . . is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Pet 3:9).I do not know when or why God chooses to judge and punish people today.But I do know that he is patiently waiting for us to humble ourselves before him and to receive his forgiveness and eternal life. Now is the time to choose. When he returns, judgment will begin. rw: And here is the true foundation of Cliff's moral system...a threat of violent destruction against all who exercise their autonomy of will and choose not to believe in Cliff's god. His moral foundation is just another arbitrary appeal to "might makes right", and nothing more. It flows forward on threats and promises. Heaven or hell. Neither of which are verifiable conditions in this life. It's nothing more than the age old dichotomy between faith and reason. Cliff: Fourth, at the University of Maine a young man painfully asked, "My younger sister fell on the concrete next to a pool. She broke some bones.When she was just about healed, she fell again and broke some more bones.Her bones were nearly mended when she stumbled and broke another bone. What's the story? Is God playing a sadistic game with my little sister?" Babies are born with multiple birth defects. Genetic disorders plague many of us. An earthquake levels a city, and thousands lose their lives in the rubble. The Bible teaches that there is not always a one-to-one correspondence between sin and suffering. When we human beings told God to shove off, he partially honored our request. Nature began to revolt. The earth was cursed.Genetic breakdown and disease began. Pain and death became part of the human experience. The good creation was marred. We live in an unjust world. We are born into a world made chaotic and unfair by a humanity in revolt against its Creator. rw: And yet Adam was suffering under loneliness long before god forced him into rebellion. That's why god created him a helpmeet. Adam's relationship with god wasn't enough. Creatures existed capable of deception. That's the tool god created to compel A&E to reach for moral knowledge. Man's reality existed and Adam's intellectual prowess was employed to catagorize them, (give them names)...long before god issued that fateful commandment. Man was told to exercise dominion over the earth, an activity that absolutely requires moral knowledge to decide what is right and wrong in that exercising; another condition that god established before man was cursed for attempting to acquire the knowledge to do what god created him to do. At every juncture in this myth we see a god who plays man like a fooseball game piece, shoving him back and forth between incomprehensible emotional and intellectual conflicts without any clear indication that god was going to guide him. God created a garden and cast man into it, commanded him to tend it and gave him leave to partake of his labors and then establishing one tree, the one tree crucial to man's existence as a moral being, as god's private property and served man an ultimatum. Yet it magically all falls on Adam as the reason children are born with no eyes or legs or slowly suffer and die from starvation and disease. Adam must surely be the most miserable creature god ever created if he still exists somewhere and can witness the results of a choice he was cornered into making. Cliff: Fifth, the book of Job reveals there is a personal being named Satan who works to bring pain, disaster and death into the lives of people. If a person suffers and is angry with God, frequently that is misplaced anger. God is the giver of life. Satan is the destroyer, the one who tears down life. Often pain is not the direct result of sin but rather the handiwork of Satan. Paul, for example, wrote to the Corinthians, "There was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me" (2 Cor 12:7). rw: Yes, we mustn't neglect how man invented gods that evolved into a monotheistic God who gained political control of a nation, failed to control the world and collided with Hellenism, crashed to the earth and burst into a plethora of trinitarian doctrines along with an entourage of lesser deities like devils and angels. My how far the monotheistic god has been taken from a Jewish tradition to a new Roman plethora of gods re-incorporated under a new name. Cliff: Sixth, in Jesus, God stepped into this world marred by human rebellion and the destruction of Satan. When Jesus was confronted by pain and disease,he brought healing through the use of a miracle. He did not use his supernatural power to feather his nest but rather to heal the sick and raise the dead. rw: And this is a role model for 21st century man. Forget science, reason, logic, rationality...just look for the miraculous and all problems will fade into the blissful peace of mass extinction as god continues his prejudicial and selective response for unfathomable reasons to prayers and pleas in liue of reason and science. Cliff: Jesus commanded his followers not only to trust him in all circumstances but also to love those who bring them pain. Jesus said, "If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.... Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Mt 5:39, 44). This type of trust in God and love for all people produces Christlike character. Paul writes, "Suffering produces perseverance; Perseverance, character"(Rom 5:3-4). rw: And, of course, why Christlike character should be preferrable to human nature is predicated on that threat of hellfire and eternal damnation otherwise. Singing love songs while slinging the sickle even if the blood fills oceans, man will love his enemies until they stomp him and his irrational behavior out of existence. Cliff: C. S. Lewis writes, "God whispers to us in our pleasures, speaks in our conscience, but shouts in our pains: it is his megaphone to rouse a deaf world." The amazing truth taught in Scripture is that God can take suffering and pain, and produce something good and beautiful. Many people have told me how God used pain and tragedy to wake them out of spiritual lethargy and bring them to a point of decision for Christ. Aleksandr Solzhenitsvn writes, "Bless you, prison, for having been in my life." The prison wasn't good. But God could bring good out of it. rw: The amazing truth is that god does nothing. Man takes suffering and evil and either over-comes it by heroic and cooperative effort or capitulates and vanishes in unmarked graves like six million Jews while god stood idly by and did nothing. Cliff: The question each one of us must answer is, "Will I allow suffering to drive me to Christ for salvation and the power to be Christlike in character, or will I allow suffering to drive me into bitterness and despair?" rw: And why Cliff would like to reduce ones options here should be too obvious to go into any further detail. Cliff: Seventh, the great news of the Bible is that God cares so deeply for hurting people that he has provided the solution for suffering and death. Jesus commands us to be agents of compassion and justice in a decaying world.To fight pain and suffering is not simply an option for a follower of Christ.It is an expression of his love for God. John writes, "This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth" (1 Jn 3:16-18). Followers of Christ use science, medicine, law, business, education and any other tool to alleviate suffering, prolong life, promote justice, and enhance the quality of life. rw: And do so for the selfish reason that they want to placate a god into allowing them to stroke their egos into believing they are eternally sanctioned for heavenly bliss. And the implied soothsayer's message here is that man is incapable of a compassionate act without an imaginary god to justify it. Is it possible to command someone to feel compassion? Is any atruistic behavior done under this command actually done out of love or compassion for the recipient? Or is it more likely the case that the recipients are just a means to and end for the christian? Is it the case that only those compassionate behaviors that are expressed by christians qualify as moral acts? That's exactly what Cliff is saying here. I, for one, do my alms because I selfishly and sincerely want to help the recipient, not because I'm commanded to do so and scared witless that if I don't I might lose my berth on the boat into heaven. Cliff acts as if his atruistic behavior is morally justified and exeplifies complete selflessness, while in reality it extolls a hideous kind of selfishness that only a depraved god would consider worthy of approbation. I would like Cliff to explain why, in Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus accepted people into heaven who did good deeds without being aware they had done them as unto Christ? Surely Cliff's doctrines are leading men down a road that will engender dis-approval from his god as being based on the wrong motives. Cliff: The great news of the Bible is that God is a suffering God. He suffered in Jesus Christ. God is not a philosophical notion floating in space. God is a personal being who became man in Jesus of Nazareth. He died on a cross to provide the ultimate solution for suffering and death. His solution is forgiveness and eternal life. Christ rose from the dead. Over a period of forty days he appeared to over five hundred people. He ascended to his Father in heaven. He promised to come again to destroy all evil, suffering and death. He will transform this chaotic, unjust world into an orderly, just world. "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Rev 21:4). If there is no all-knowing, all powerful God who stands at the end of human history, justice shall never ultimately win.The wrongs will never be made right. Evil, suffering and death triumph. But Christ taught that history was ultimately God's story. The question is, "Have I accepted God's solution to the problem of suffering? Have I accepted Christ?" I cannot hide behind the question,'Why does God allow suffering?" But I can embrace God's solution for suffering by putting my trust in Jesus Christ for eternal life and allowing Christ to thrust me into a hurting world to administer his love, forgiveness and healing. rw: Or I can thrust myself into situations of my chosing and be moved by compassion to assist those who are in genuine need based on criteria that doesn't prostitute my moral convictions out to whomsoever will on the basis of some indefinable fuzzy disconnected love that no man is rationally capable of. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 355 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
I think evil to God is as to a fire to a blacksmith. or a kiln to a potter. And we being the metal can not fordge anything good out of ourselves from the fire unless we are in the blacksmiths hands. It is a part of creation that is less than God and not to be worshiped above God. Yet God has control of it ultimately. Jeremiah 11:20 But, O LORD of hosts, that judgest righteously, that triest the reins and the heart, Isiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. 8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. 9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? | ||
| joycewalsh New member Username: joycewalsh Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
Dear rw, I read some of your discussion with Cliff. I commend your amazing intellectual reasoning to every Q and A . I want you to know i don't speak english well because english is my second language but I'll try. Why innocent people suffer? We need to look at life in Past, present, and future. Life is no beginning, no end. people make causes. Causes through life condition of greed anger and stupidity. If people practice wrong view of life, wrong teaching that keeps people foolish, that person not only will suffer but environment will be affected. wrong teaching is part of evil that strengthen greed, anger, and stupidity. Correct teaching or truth or correct view of life will strengthen people to strive to do good, that is to fight(fight within oneself) fundamental darkness of humanbeing such as, keeping us to be blind to the truth(which keeping us to do the wrong things based on human(or animal instinc)instinc without reason. That is greed, anger, stupidity. Greed will bring shortage of food to go around, price will be high, as an example. Anger will cause people to take violent action, including as a bigger scale such as a war. ( Anger has its use. when we see injustice we feel anger). Stupidity, or another word, animal world only know how to survive. Be strong and abusive to the weak and suck up to the strong. Stupidity causes illness of all kinds. Hell is lowest of 10 world life condition. After that hunger, animality, anger, tranquility, rapture, learning, realization, Boddisattva, Buddahood(Enlightenment). Most people go through 6th lower world. People rejoice at knowing something good happen to them, then when there is bad news, one will fall into hellish life condition or suffering (depends on what the news is). People fall into these lower life condition and up and down based on the environment. We practice to strengten Budda nature or enlightenment to manifest wisdon, courage, life force, compassion, and build strength or another words "empowering ourselves". We don't rely on outside forces to save us or whatever. People's lives is responsibility of their own, based on making these causes, good or bad. You'll know when you did something wrong(even when nobody saw it, It creates karma) Life is battle with choice between good we want to do or devilish functions that at times its sweet, but make us miserable , or cause us to suffer later. This Buddhist practice we do by chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, is practice to strengthen our wisdom, and all the above I described, so, that we will not fall into lower life tendencies, but to make higher cause through developing wisdoms to know what is right things to do that is good for both you and others. I believe in peace and justice but I will not simply tolerate someone hit me and to say hit me more. This is not justice for me and eventually for the one who hits(he is making a bad cause). It is karma that I got hit in the first place, or whatever may happened) but, we will do something to stop that violence by doing something about it, is wisdom and justice and courage too. Karma, we create by action we take thru words, thought,and deed. so we born differently as everyone is. We can change karma thru practice, which is powerful medicine, call it the words I said earlier. We are not stuck to just suffer anymore. We will be enlightened. I use this practice and take responsibility for my own life to create happy life not temparaly but absolute happiness that nothing can destroy. And help others to do the same. Sounds easy? no, because people will cling to their own belief and not always accept different ideas or views of others. But millions people through out the world , and 137 country, are practicing this powerful teaching, powerful medicin it suits just right in this latter day of poisoned world filled with suffering. It's individual and collective karma of humankind but it doesn't have to be. You know people who seek just pleasure, moment to moment and not think about suffering or what next or even death. Maybe comfortable for a moment but, we don't know what our karma will be tommorow, That is one of reason we do need to make good cause based on correct teaching and to know we're not only changing karma today but we're also making powerful causes for the tommorow(future) as well. Past, present, future. it all contains in that moment. What a concept. But all this, you still want to experience to know the truth. Call it actual proof. Does your life change? and eventually colletively? change for the better? peace , happiness all of these things? That's why I choose to dialogue with you to share the thoughts and open to new views. Here is internet you can check out; www.sgiusa.org. And try to get a book call "Buddha in your mirror". That will be a good start. There are many helpful readings. | ||
| Dave Geisler New member Username: daveg Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
It seems to me on all these post, which are very well thought out, and that we forget that no one can be intellectualized into a relationship with Christ. No, there is a step of faith. This was difficult for me to grasp at first but I think now I can see more of God's insight into His desire that the relationship with Him is by faith not sight. If it were by sight we would always be looking for Him to continually manifest Himself to us at our every whim or desire. We would start building God into the image in which we desire...ie. a genie in a magic lamp. My point? Intellectual reason of the scripture is so vitally important and adds to your relationship with God. But it cannot take place of faith. They are both vital essentials that we are called to use when we love God (Mar 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments is: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God is one LORD. (30) ' And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This is the first commandment.) There are 66 books in my Bible and understanding them, listening to them and ultimately following them are my deepest hearts desire. Not because of guilt or any other "man-made" motive, but because I desire to show the object of my affection how I truly feel...deeper and deeper in love with Him day by day. I still strugle with sin and I probably always will. But as the blinders have been lifted off and I am not so caught in a snare, I now have the freedom to love, the freedom to discern truth. Christ is real, both historically as a man, and as the Savior unto the world. For this I am forever grateful. One final point, there are not only two answers when it comes to pre-destination and election. I am neither a Calvinist or an Armenianist. | ||
| Timothy Campen Intermediate Member Username: tcampen Post Number: 216 Registered: 09-2003 Rating: N/A |
Dave, I appreciate you post. You recognize the personal revelation aspect of Christian faith, which also happens to be the hub of all faith - even so-called lack of it. It is that personal, indescribably, experience that says, "Hey, it just makes sense now!" Not everyone gets this in their lifetime, necessarily, but the experience is common to people of all faiths, even athiests. Once that personal revelation is plugged in, the faith makes sense, especially among those who have experienced a similar revelation. When argued on pure intellectual levels, no one faith wins out over the others. Can't happen. So I respect them all equally - even yours. Follow your god faithfully and let him enrich your life. And please understand how others can be just as enriched in their faiths as well. | ||
| Dave Geisler New member Username: daveg Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
Timothy, I couldn't have said it better myself; how true, how true. There has to be more to this life then just an average everyday high and how terrible it is to not have that connection with the Creator. I myself have been through the jungle of "religions" and at one point was a self-confessed atheist. But Christ haunted me...everything he said was so true, so pure, so right but I always rationalized further examination of Him with my own personal desire to live how I wanted to live. And on top of that the representatives that called themselves Christians couldn't think their way out of an open door. So I kinda became like Paul and persecuted the Christians that I knew. Until one day when someone really had me step up to the plate and instead of the intellectual smoke screen I put up, well they asked the right questions. That again brought me back to Jesus, His message and His purpose and I can remember the day like it was yesterday when I finally surrendered completely to Him and no longer am I living my life for me but for the purpose He created me for. What an awesome adventure this has been and I cannot wait for my next step with Him who created me. I appreciate these post and my hope is that we can all come together and lift the BS that makes so much of everyday life unbearable. Let us all come together to search for the way, the truth and the life that God truly wants us to grasp. | ||
| Mary Dill New member Username: kazegpan Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
I am a christian so I am clearly biased in that way. We all base our reasoning on assumptions in that way. I think there is one most basic reason for suffering in the world, that is sin. We are all sinful, but not only that. Even among those who are now covered by the blood of Christ thus justified through faith before God, the effects of sin will affect also. And the effects of your personal sin before you were forgiven follow you long after. But in my personal experience the my sin and the sin of those around me has created such suffering that it has brought me to my knees before my God and led me to Christ. Some may not be ready to hear the gospel, and some may have had their hearts hardened already. But for those God sent to us we are required to preach to them the gospel. Before I found myself on my knees before God and even some time after I could not hear the truth, but I believe God chose the time and the place when I finally would hear Him. Even in our suffering God is gathering us together unto Himself and perfecting us. So, while sin is a horrible thing God uses everything to His glory and according to His great plan. Even His provision for our Savior required many to turn against their own God and be blind to the truth and slay His Son, God in the flesh, before their own Father in heaven. Let the blind be blind but our light continue to shine for those who are ready to see and the gospel be preached for those who are able to hear it. | ||
| John Dill New member Username: rainbow_walking Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
I am a christian so I am clearly biased in that way. We all base our reasoning on assumptions in that way. I think there is one most basic reason for suffering in the world, that is sin. We are all sinful, but not only that. Even among those who are now covered by the blood of Christ thus justified through faith before God, the effects of sin will affect also. And the effects of your personal sin before you were forgiven follow you long after. But in my personal experience the my sin and the sin of those around me has created such suffering that it has brought me to my knees before my God and led me to Christ. Some may not be ready to hear the gospel, and some may have had their hearts hardened already. But for those God sent to us we are required to preach to them the gospel. Before I found myself on my knees before God and even some time after I could not hear the truth, but I believe God chose the time and the place when I finally would hear Him. Even in our suffering God is gathering us together unto Himself and perfecting us. So, while sin is a horrible thing God uses everything to His glory and according to His great plan. Even His provision for our Savior required many to turn against their own God and be blind to the truth and slay His Son, God in the flesh, before their own Father in heaven. Let the blind be blind but our light continue to shine for those who are ready to see and the gospel be preached for those who are able to hear it. Hi Mary, I wonder if we're related? (I wonder if you'd ackowledge it if we were :^D ) Is Dill your married name or maiden? Anywho, I don't see any reason to believe in sin. Man is not omniscient and prone to mistakes and psychological deficiencies. Do you think making a slave out of another human being is sinful? Sin is the crowbar christianity uses to wedge open a person's mind to start the download of theistic claims about a personal god. It's a clever ruse but depends entirely on a person's self esteem to work. Catch a person in an unfortunate situation, time of sorrow or anxiety about their identity and sin works like a charm. The concept of sin is disgusting to me. I see it as holding man's moral status as ransom to compel him to behave and obey religious tenets. Man is born a moral being and no god or religious group has the right or authority to steal his moral status from him. In fact, they cannot unless he capitilates and surrenders it voluntarily. But the arguments used to justify and persuade men to do so have gone un-challenged far too long. To teach man he is a depraved sinner is the epitomy of human destruction. It is no wonder, when this has been taught for centuries, that you find few men who are capable of living moral lives. This dogmatism has become so engrained in so many cultures, especially in America, that people will do anything to avoid the scathing accusation of being labeled a sinner. I reject all such claims both now and for the duration of my existence. I am neither a sinner nor a depraved human being. I retain all claims to my moral status and give no ground to gods, preachers, bibles or laity who are free to believe whatever they wish. I have no intention of complying with the wishes, demands or pleas of a non-existent god and any self appointed mouth piece claiming to speak for him. Having rejected all such claims upon my personhood I find I am free of guilt, fear and the inevitable damage to my self esteem that follows from accepting such claims as true. I am in no need of salvation from that which I have rejected as the cause for being in such need. You may make any declaration about the organ that pumps blood throughout my body that you wish but if my heart or arteries are hardened it is through nothing other than cholesteral and there are medical treatments as well as medications for this condition. I am an Objectivist who holds firm to the conviction that man's nature is the only proper foundation for a moral code. Any appeal to a god or government for moral certitude is to abrogate one's moral responsibilities. A god, being described as an eternal being and therefore not mortal, can have nothing constructive to contribute to the proper behavior of man. The bible has nothing about this god that inspires me with any confidence that he has man's best interests at heart. Appealing to a god as the foundation of morality is equivalent to seeking refuge from a sandstorm by hiding behind a sand dune. Any being who once decided to annihilate all of humanity with a flood is far from a moral creature. Any being with that kind of power is far from being capable of moral consideration or compassion. I realize most of this will be disregarded by appeals to faith and Jesus and any number of other religious gimmicks but I have weighed in on the subject for what it's worth. Why would a moral anchor create a place called hell for the eternal torment of his enemies? Even man has more compassion on his enemies. | ||
| joycewalsh New member Username: joycewalsh Post Number: 2 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
people live daily life with belief. We all know sun will rise in the morning, season changes, when one is sick we know to go to doctor etc. These things we know thru experience, or something we learn thru teaching, or books. Society has rule such as taking a exam, test, get a degree etc. Some becomes a doctor thru taking all these steps. So we trust them, we go see them expecting that they will take care our body and well being. It's some form of faith. Something so important as spiritual or religious faith, wouln't you want to have experience or proof that which you can build faith, trust ? You wouldn't let someone babysit your child(if you have one), before check about the person? And even you check them, you will build your trust as time goes on. Just simply to have faith in something its not there( I'll rephrase it, call with wrong name). You see, people hearing things when normal people know its not there, is first sign of mental illness. You hear some people say, "devil made me do it" , "god told me to do that." I, at times, hear my own thoughts. That is based on either negative thought when I am mad and feel like destroy something( I don't mean big), or I can reason with my self, based on my life condition that I gained thru using my practice of chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-kyo,and elevate my low life condition of anger to a higher life condition of compassion and see situation correctly and clearly(and by the way, this will relieve my suffering of anger that burns me). And by doing so, I will be able to avoid bad result that would have caused me suffer later on. Everything comes from within us not from outside of us. If one believes something outside of us has control, every action one take will be meaningless, useless and anything happen to us is in mercy of outside force. No one has to take responsibility about anything, its all in god's hand. But we live in a society where there is rule, we know better that if we steal or break the law we go to jail( some get away though). Did god made one to kill somebody to do good for somebodyelse, and one will believe so strongly that what one did is god's will?, Now, when that happens, one is at the point of breaking away from reality( I am saying this as an example). Living in a reality and clearly see what's happening and deal with that reality in one's best capability is, and will be a correct thing to do. Facing reality can be harsh, and sometimes we may not want to face it. There is birth, aging, sickness, and death. Not to mention all the other suffering in between. Those are basic human suffering. Buddha taught teaching early on some provisional teaching that lead them to belive some far away there is heaven where they can go. But that was capacity of people, at that time, long time ago, which it was a only way to get them to understand and seek "teaching". In this latter day, people's capacity,and time is different. People who born today is filled with poisons of greed, anger, and stupidity. And born with lots of negative karma. It takes direct(face it!) and strong medicine(correct teaching) to clear these poison and clear our minds. This is what we practice, and we polish our lives by chanting these words and menifest our highest life condition call it Buddahood or enlightenment. Sure, human suffering is real, but when we are enligtened, we don't just say it is our "sin", but we will change that suffering(poison) into medicine(happiness) and show others it can be done thru example by overcoming it. It is actual proof. its not miracle thing, once in a life time thing, It's everyday's reality, it is about transforming our lives around and those around us one by one. It takes action with clear mind. When one knows suffering as suffering( I say this because some extreme case, people will cause and tolerate on the reason as it's god's will or mission or something like that. Or when people lost their mind they don't know the suffering, they are numbed) then that is good indication that one hasn't lost mind and it is a good start. That, now you want to change it by taking action. With Your own effort. And I am going to share with you that powerful medicine(or power that you already possess) which call it Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, to bring it out from within you. Power in you,compassion, courage, life force, ect., all of these. It's universe's law. Or you can call it god. But when you call this (name) words, you will see the proof. everyone has name. And this is the name. Jesus will be so happy that you found that title, that was not available to him at that time where he was. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 358 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
John Dill you said "The concept of sin is disgusting to me. I see it as holding man's moral status as ransom to compel him to behave and obey religious tenets. Man is born a moral being and no god or religious group has the right or authority to steal his moral status from him. In fact, they cannot unless he capitilates and surrenders it voluntarily. But the arguments used to justify and persuade men to do so have gone un-challenged far too long. " hmmm does the word hypocrite mean anything to you? Are you trying to tell others they are wrong according to your SINGULAR limited view, in order to pry a crow bar to others minds so that they will turn to YOUR ways, and measure? ON what grounds can you lay these charges? And on what right? I see a person who has seemingly fooled themselves to think they are on a higher plane than others, but is mistaken. The laws surrounding any mans existence is not decided by that man, including in the life’s of others. Like you said we are born into it. There alone is the evidence man does not choose what morality is, but chooses within what we are born into. And I know there is more to this world than our feeble opinions. And I also noticed you just did not know the basic fundamental of the gospel when you laid your charges down. And how the bible represents God in a world of sin. So I will share it with you. Romans 2:4 the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? "To teach man he is a depraved sinner is the epitomy of human destruction. " LOL and so then what are you teaching here? and then how do you have a measure of people being wrong?????????????????????? Do you call it the John Dill law of righteousness? pardon the sarcasm, and you will forgive me for noticing YOU ARE NOT OUR CREATOR, yourself included. Nor the author (authority) of what is right. Though you speak as if you are. And have neglected to notice the arguments used to justify, and persuade men to do so HAVE BEEN FAR FROM UNCHALANGED, it is the oldest known historical record man has and has yet to cease being challenged. Which is why I now have chosen to challenge you to view the evidence at hand before you make an emotional decision to back up your faith. No matter how angry you may be it does not decide what is actually right or wrong. Or Just and unjust, or true of false. Do you not even realize you have now labeled others actions unjust, and implied the motive? That is you are using the very measures you say should not be used. You are basically calling people unjust for calling people unjust. "I retain all claims to my moral status and give no ground to gods, preachers, bibles " I do not any longer retain my moral status, however I also do not give any ground to God, preachers or the bible, nor can I remove any credits. They are representative of themselves regardless of who we may choose to BELIEVE, the actuality behind such things are determined by the LAWS of EXISTENCE that we live within. No matter how hard we may try to define it, we can't. We can observe it properly or not. But everything is already laid out and defined in the working orders I call the laws of existence. And in the plethora of EVIDENCE surrounding the person of Jesus the Christ (messiah) I elected to share this one with you. Micah 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem. written some 700 years before the birth of Christ, Micah predicted here not only the town but which lot of land. And there is even a further deal of significance to why this particular lot. The tower of the flock was a tower in Bethlehem that the Shepard’s would watch over the lambs from. The kingdom to come mentioned in Micah’s prediction is associated threw many other scriptures throughout many different scriptural recording times over the course of 1500 years writings and testimonials. That is associated with the messiah coming and setting up His kingdom. These lambs born in the tower of the flock were sometimes special, because in this field is where the sacrificial lambs were selected after they were born. And sacrificied at the Judaic temple for sins. The baby lambs were taken and wrapped in swaddling clothes to protect them from blemish or spot, and then placed in a manjor. There is no way man could have orchestrated all these events to follow when Jesus (Gods lamb for the world) was born at the tower of the flock, wrapped in swaddling clothes, and placed in a manjor. Especialy when you consider one evidence that, the people who had the temple, and sacrificied the lambs generally speaking did not believe their messiah had been born. In fact when the wise men showed up at Jurasalem 4 to 6 miles away. They asked where is the Christ, and they were directed to go to Bethleham. Funny thing here is a group of people waiting for a messiah to be born, and the prist don’t bother making a 4 mile trek to check it out. I think because like you they did not care to know even if it were true. And at the time, they did not know the significance of Where he was born. So that leaves their (Jews in general) motive to conspire and manipulate the person Jesus, non existent. Which is also evident by way of the evidence, and records given on hand. You see life is like a court room, and in your post you have made a judgment and declared an unwillingness to even view the EVIDENCE at hand. Truly the true evidence man cannot make up. Nor conspire in order to manipulate people. Which is much of what your words are. And I ad WITHOUT MERIT or ANY EVIDENCE to support your chosen faith, including your decided ignorance to view what the bible truly represents. And the evidence within it in regard to creation regardless to what a preacher may say about it or why. I personally think you have shot yourself in the foot, and have over looked the best thing death has to offer you. LIFE And I ask you to instead of assuming your views are justified, look at the evidence at hand, ask others what they believe and why before you brand them unjust? Make a decision based on the facts at hand, and discern what is untrue by way of evidence, not yours mine or anyones personal opinion. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 359 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
Dave, you wrote "that we forget that no one can be intellectualized into a relationship with Christ." I think we forget that faith in Christ is the reason God gaves us the abilitie to intelectualize, and reason. Both saved and unsaved. That is to come to know Christ. Without the ability to intelectualze how could we make a choice regarding our faith and discern the evidence at hand? God far from calls people to believe blindly. Lets not forget Paul went into the temple and reasoned with the people. I myself think it is blind faith without reasoning and discerning that leads man to religion instead of the truth. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 360 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
joyce you got it backwards if everything we are does not come from God, then all we are amounts to nothing, becuase no matter how hard one may meditate for example it wont undo their appointment with death. Which like life, does not come from within. But from God | ||
| Dave Geisler New member Username: daveg Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
jason, you wrote "I think we forget that faith in Christ is the reason God gaves us the abilitie to intelectualize, and reason. Both saved and unsaved. That is to come to know Christ. Without the ability to intelectualze how could we make a choice regarding our faith and discern the evidence at hand?" I agree with your statements but did you not read my entire post? It goes back to the fact that there is a step of faith that is involved in a relationship with Christ. Not a step in the darkness or a step blindly, but at some point you will need faith in order to please God. If faith were not needed then it would just be a physical relationship instead of a spiritual one. I do agree with the point that we must reason through the scripture and we must not be blind to the facts of Christianity. Unfortunately so many so called Christians can narrowly give you the road to salvation and thus have been portrayed as mindless bafoons...I pray for the day this stereotype changes. We are called to love God with not only our heart but our mind, soul and strength. And lets face the facts that man continues to use the God-breathed scripture for his own personal gain or control...and usually it is people that have not reasoned through the scriptures but have taken it on blindly. It is not the Bibles fault it is misused, no, it is mans intellectual laziness that desires to know the One who made him blindly...Oh, how we have misused our minds, and I think that it gives God glory when we meditate, memorize and reason through the Word. As for your post to Mr. Dill...you hit the nail on the head but Jason let us not forget what scripture says: 1Pe 3:15 Instead, exalt Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you to explain the hope you have. 1Pe 3:16 But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience... With Love in Christ...Dave | ||
| Mary Dill New member Username: kazegpan Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
Ok, it's time to start a new thread... I will try to figure out how to do that and be working on that one. But I think we have moved in this one from talking about the issue of human suffering to the concept of wisdom. Look for: Christ crucified: the foolishness of men or Godly wisdom... (or something like that). And by the way, thanks Cliff for the website, the debate, all the shows you do and your appearances on our campuses! | ||
| joycewalsh New member Username: joycewalsh Post Number: 3 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
Hi Jason, All living thing born will die. It is nature, or we call it universe's law. Tree looks dead in winter but it comes back in spring. Our lives too, it comes back, soon or later. You call god, is another name of this law(nature). And we call that law Nam-Myoho-Renge-kyo. We don't know how and why nature such as sun rise and sun set and all the things in universe. We just know it always has been that way(science discovery explain lots of things we didn't know before). Myoho means mystic law. Nobody knows what after death comes(as an example), We only believe what we believe. But we all know that tree looked dead yet come back in spring, and it is living thing. Never beginning never ending. Heaven and hell is not somewhere where I will go, but I live it. Sometimes I'll be happy, but, some other times I might fall into hellish miserable condition(I have gone through this condition in the past, yet I did'nt know to call this as such name, when I did'nt know about this practice). Blind men touch the elephant's leg and start to debate what that leg is like. They may even argue about it. No matter what the man with good eye sight tell them what the whole elephant is like, they will not know until they see it themselves. This practice is what we do to help open people's eyes to see things clearly for what it is, and truth about life, and death. That is to awaken people to the law of universe, fundamental truth that exist all along such as never beginning never ending in universe. This law is what you call god. That law's name is Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo. When I first started practice, I didn't know much about anything, for the minor negative things I did, such as slandering my fellow members out of contempt or anger, negative consceqences were resulted immediately that caused me suffering. People go to church for their sin and forgiveness. I did realize what I did and I chanted these words. And I got immediate relief. When these experiences build again again, I knew better this practice has power. I, as who I'm with body and mind is small universe, as nature's movement. This law I discribe exist in universe is equal. Another words, body and its environment is equal. Whatever I do, it reflects in its environment and comes back soon or later, Good or bad. When large number of people with bad causes will be reflected in its surrounding nature and come back in a bad situation. We all see lots of disasters. It's not just nature doing or something simply god's thing. But it is reflection of body(what human does) and environment with its response. When we go by society's rule(law) we'll live life without going jail(exept some different situation). Universe too has that law. I discribed earlier about sun rise sunset. It moves according to that law. Life too, moves according to that law. That law is also exist in our lives. When we break that law, we hurt ourselves. But then, if we don't know that law, we don't know what law to follow. And human's fundamental, basic suffering remains Such as birth, sickness, death etc. Practicing this teaching enlighten us about law of life and death. When one do not know the law, even if one has good intentions to act and teach others something other than that law, soon or later one will end up in the wrong lane or worse. When one is awaken to this law, and practice its teaching, one will be in the right direction, overcoming all the heavy traffic(call it karma, that one made cause suffering), eventually will be in the free way toward absolute happiness. We don't have to lookforward to somewhere heaven. Sure, it takes hard work to face reality and build happiness,in this difficult world but, you can see with your own eyes that you are building that heaven of your own place in your own life. And show others how to do it. So many disasters in this world and all the problems are caused by people breaking the law(because they don't know), wrong view of life, practicing wrong teaching and nature is responding to it. What does that mean? Because people's life condition is filled with poison of greed anger and stupidity that needs to be purified. I told you example earlier what I have experienced. Even though it may seem minor, I was making a negative causes through verbal, and thought. Karma is made from thought(mental), words we speak, and deed. By using this powerful medicine(through chanting), I was relieved of suffering that I made myself. Mystical indeed. Myoho is mystic law. We don't know why and how it works, just like universe how and why. But Buddha's enlightenment taught us to chant these words and follow his teaching. www.sgiusa.org. Check it out. And thank you for an opportunity for dialogue and that I could share my view. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 364 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
Joyce The laws of existence (non determined by man) saw fit that we are powerless to undo a wrong once it has been committed. That is what I call conviction, or sense of accountability. We can not UNDO our wrongs, can we feel better about our choice and purpose it in our hearts to not do it again? yes Can we and should we meditate on what is right to better move forard? Absolutely Can we define what is wright and wrong with our imperfect human measure alone? Nope, that's how we got it wrong in the 1st place. But we are stuck with the simple knowledge that we can not undo our evil choices, and have now become in debt to this law of good and evil which we have no authority to change. That is what I have chosen to believe is a sense of life after death from the authority of life. The one true God. After havinmg read it in the bible. and a sense of being in debt to Him which we can't UNDO once it has passed because we can not go back in time. The sense of right and wrong can not be only a human construct, and I believe religion has borrowed that sense to serve man made false solutions to this problem that only Christ alone solved and paid for in order to undo our debt. that is a sense of judgement of life in death. or after life. Which is to bring you to the understanding of your need for a fix, you can not provide for yourself. And no other man can for you either. In addition to this basic formula there is much evidence within the context of the bible, in view of the world arround us, in a way we have been made able to understand by a power and law we do not control or determine. It colaborates Christ in a way man could not have fabricated throughout time. May you investigate His promises further? And I ask that you ponder why undo negative if we just evolve round and round anway and basicly do not change what we do not undertsand. And what you call mystery. May you also ponder that what happens in death, can be known by the authority of our law, in a way He designed. That is by choosinf to have Faith in His word. And you are allowed to investigate the evidence before you make that choice. But how can you believe what you have not heard? | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 365 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
and to stay on topic. I think God allows us to suffer so we see a need for his goodness. and made able to choose it. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 366 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
David you said "but Jason let us not forget what scripture says:" 1Pe 3:15 Instead, exalt Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be prepared to give a defense to everyone who asks you to explain the hope you have. 1Pe 3:16 But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience... With Love in Christ...Dave David I have not forgoten, and lets not forget what the scriptures say, in that when Christ kicked over the money tables at the temple and out of His love he called a spade a spade, and did not sugar coat their wrong doings, just like my mother who loves me would not play down my saying I mowed the lawn if I did not. Or Paul calling the Jews what they were, to the point of being stoned. and marching back into town with the SAME message of love. It was of my intent to provoke Mr Dill to examine his charges with the same measure of recompense he used, and weather or not he was right or doing a good thing. When it copmes to hitting the nail on the head the goal should be to drive it home. and some wood is harder than others. example I visit my uncle in his dying days. Truly it was love and compassion that brought me there. I was not close to him (which is why God called me to talk to him) He was a mean man to most arround him and I was imune to that do to less exposure. And I cut to the chase while sharring Christ with him. and bluntly said you are not getting any younger when he tried saying give me some time to think about it. I like the KJV better 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing. good conversation in christ and honest understanding of ones hypocracy, both saved and unsaved will not always be gentile. John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. Mathew 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Usualy when one lays charges against God they are guilty of the very charge they have falsified against God in thier own minds. Exposing that is not always gentle. And when speaking with one whom God has already dealt with, and they are ready to receive Christ, They simply need to hear the gospel, if they already know they are wrong. So there are different circumstances with different types of people. some wood is like pudy and you only need to use a gentile push, and others are as hard as diamonds. The nail is universal and will not bend. It will be the making or braking of what it hits. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 367 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
One of my favorite evagalists I have ever heard preach, left a mark on most who heard him in my town to this day. He carried a big hammer and hit the nail on the head. fire and brimstone. The bigest hammer I ever saw. one can't be found if they dont know they are lost. | ||
| John Dill Junior Member Username: rainbow_walking Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
John Dill you said "The concept of sin is disgusting to me. I see it as holding man's moral status as ransom to compel him to behave and obey religious tenets. Man is born a moral being and no god or religious group has the right or authority to steal his moral status from him. In fact, they cannot unless he capitilates and surrenders it voluntarily. But the arguments used to justify and persuade men to do so have gone un-challenged far too long. " hmmm does the word hypocrite mean anything to you? rw hy·poc·ri·sy (hą-pĽk“rą-s) n., pl. hy·poc·ri·sies. 1. The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness. 2. An act or instance of such falseness. I suggest you invest in a good dictionary or explain how you know what I think or believe better than I do. Calling me a hypocrite is claiming I am representing a position I do not believe to be true. I would appreciate an explanation of how you came upon this accusation and if one isn’t forthcoming I demand an apology, else I will put you on ignore. Are you trying to tell others they are wrong according to your SINGULAR limited view, in order to pry a crow bar to others minds so that they will turn to YOUR ways, and measure? rw I am describing a psychological mechanism used by religion to persuade man to believe unproven claims based on myth about his moral status. I am not playing on man’s emotions the way your camp does but appealing to his faculties of reason. Learn the difference. ON what grounds can you lay these charges? And on what right? rw: On the grounds of rationality, reason, logic and empirical irrefutable evidence. I appeal to right and wrong on the basis of trail and error reduction with functionality as the ultimate litmus test. You, on the other hand, have a religious heritage steeped in oceans of blood and suffering as various religions clash and as various denominational and doctrinal espousers collide. Shall I elucidate? Wanna start with the Protestant/Catholic wars in Ireland? Or the Muslim/Christian conflicts all over Europe and the Middle East? How about the Jewish and Christian conflicts depicted in both history and the NT? The holocaust ring any bells? Care to consider the Inquisition, Crusades, Witch hunts, 9/11, the ghastly treatment of women in Afghanistan, priests molesting children for years while their bosses cover for them, a laity that lives in hypocrisy to what it claims to believe? Prisons full of professed believers, divorce rates as high among Christians as any other faith. Do any of these EVIDENCES count for anything? Yes, they prove conclusively that all religious claims to be a solution to man’s ignorance are false and fail miserably. They prove conclusively that predicating one’s moral foundation on a myth leaves man in a perpetual state of moral ignorance. Care to explain why the bible condones slavery but man no longer does? Or should we neglect genocide also? I see a person who has seemingly fooled themselves to think they are on a higher plane than others, but is mistaken. rw I see a person who has no rebuttal, beginning to address his arguments at me rather than at the arguments I present. This is called ad hominem Jason and is a logical fallacy that exposes a person’s intellectual inability to focus on the arguments. This is another clear evidence of the dumbing down effects of religion on human thought. The laws surrounding any mans existence is not decided by that man, including in the life’s of others. Like you said we are born into it. rw: Really? Ever heard of Democracy? There alone is the evidence man does not choose what morality is, but chooses within what we are born into. rw: Man does not choose his nature as man. A moral system not grounded in that nature, like Christianity, is self destructive, self refuting and destroys man’s self esteem, along with his intellectual integrity. A moral system tailored after an honest empirically established base of knowledge about man’s nature as a man includes autonomy of reason, liberty to pursue one’s happiness, to live and determine the quality of life one can live with. It recognizes man’s mortality as dictating his self interest and exemplifies it rather than curses man at birth for that which he requires to continue living. Your moral system damns man as immoral or amoral if he does anything in self interest other than pursue a birth on board flight 707 to heaven. I suggest you take a serious look at your bible and see how many areas of the human condition your mythological god demands man to abrogate in favor of blind obedience to its whims. And I know there is more to this world than our feeble opinions. rw: You’re right. There’s planets and stars and trees and bugs and people who are of the opinion it is better to believe in mythological invention than to make the least effort at an autonomous thought of their own. And I also noticed you just did not know the basic fundamental of the gospel when you laid your charges down. And how the bible represents God in a world of sin. So I will share it with you. Romans 2:4 the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? rw: Oh really? Then what do you make of these verses? Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Or this one: 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. Now here is a clear case that your myth has man trapped between the inexplicable motives of two deities. Neither of them appear to be overly concerned about deceiving man. And you actually imagine that man is suppose to find any meaning, truth, wisdom, knowledge or respite from his troubles in this garbage? Your god has clearly indicated he has no qualms about lying to man to get his way: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: Want to drag out all the passages that are similarly orchestrated? "To teach man he is a depraved sinner is the epitomy of human destruction. " LOL and so then what are you teaching here? and then how do you have a measure of people being wrong?????????????????????? rw: That man is responsible for building his own self esteem, establishing both a foundation and systems of morals, ethics and laws consistent to his nature…not the whims of the religious elite. See above response on the historically precedented failure of your system to guide man away from self destruction and suffering as my measure that YOU are wrong. Do you call it the John Dill law of righteousness? rw: Why no, Jason, I’ve already told you what it’s called: Objectivism. pardon the sarcasm, and you will forgive me for noticing YOU ARE NOT OUR CREATOR, yourself included. Nor the author (authority) of what is right. rw Never mind the pardon, worry about the content of your replies. Show me where I claimed to be a/the CREATOR. Then proceed to demonstrate why a CREATOR is needed. In all of your responses you continually to refer back to man’s ignorance as the only justification for a creator. This is a god-of-the-gaps argument from incredulity and a very intellectually lazy explanation for man’s condition. A cheap ticket to circumvent the responsibility of self determination and rationality; one that doesn’t net the results it promises. Got any evidence a place called Heaven or Hell exists outside your collection of myth and poetic allegory? I didn’t think so. Until you get around to establishing some real world truth-value to your initial claim of a creator god, all your subsequent claims are just question begging. ,B.Though you speak as if you are.</b> rw: I am not responsible for how you interpret my speech. A person who surrenders their autonomy of reason to fables are highly susceptible to mis-interpretation of everything. They have a tendency to cater to a theory of hermeneutics that corresponds to their presuppositions. And have neglected to notice the arguments used to justify, and persuade men to do so HAVE BEEN FAR FROM UNCHALANGED, it is the oldest known historical record man has and has yet to cease being challenged. rw: Now you are speaking from historical ignorance. If what you mean by “it” is the bible, there are many historical tractates and remnants of much earlier religious traditions stemming back centuries prior to the earliest known scrolls in existence. I suggest a good read on the history of ancient civilizations, particularly in the Mesopotamian Valley region, would enlighten your erroneous thinking. Focus on the Assyrians, Sumerians, Hittites, Canaanites, Egyptians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, and Greeks, (the originators of much of the Hellenistic penchant in Paul’s letters and epistles). Which is why I now have chosen to challenge you to view the evidence at hand before you make an emotional decision to back up your faith. No matter how angry you may be it does not decide what is actually right or wrong. Or Just and unjust, or true of false. rw My decision was not made on the basis of emotion but reason, knowledge and simple comprehension. My emotional response is engendered by the realization of how much this pandering to myths is keeping man ignorant of his right to self determination and how much they fail to deliver the goods they promise. Do you not even realize you have now labeled others actions unjust, and implied the motive? That is you are using the very measures you say should not be used. You are basically calling people unjust for calling people unjust. rw What I realize is that we share one common trait here, that being that neither of us have a clue what you are talking about. "I retain all claims to my moral status and give no ground to gods, preachers, bibles " I do not any longer retain my moral status, however I also do not give any ground to God, preachers or the bible, nor can I remove any credits. rw Once you relinquish moral status, all that’s left is immoral status. Are you now confessing to being an immoral person? Where is the justice or rationality in trying to live your life under such misguided notions about yourself? Do you work for a living? Did you know that is a moral act? Do you have a family and take responsibility for their well being? Did you know that is a moral act? Do you have creative hobbies you pursue? Did you know that is a moral act? Did you know that having self interests is a moral affirmation of your nature as a man? That how you pursue those interests will determine whether you retain your moral status or not? Why start off everyday of your life in the negative as an immoral or amoral person depending on cowtowing to a self appointed religious mouth piece, group, or invisible deity for your self esteem and moral status? How does one derive any meaning and purpose from such a life other than deriving meaning from being a slave? They are representative of themselves regardless of who we may choose to BELIEVE, the actuality behind such things are determined by the LAWS of EXISTENCE that we live within. No matter how hard we may try to define it, we can't. We can observe it properly or not. But everything is already laid out and defined in the working orders I call the laws of existence. rw: Define these laws of existence please. And in the plethora of EVIDENCE surrounding the person of Jesus the Christ (messiah) I elected to share this one with you. rw: Present this plethora of evidence for Jesus as a Messiah. Micah 4:8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem. written some 700 years before the birth of Christ, Micah predicted here not only the town but which lot of land. And there is even a further deal of significance to why this particular lot. rw: Do you have any written record or evidence outside your bible that a man name Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Are you sure the NT was not written by men looking back to make it appear these predictions aligned with their presentation? Demonstrate this not to be the case. The tower of the flock was a tower in Bethlehem that the Shepard’s would watch over the lambs from. The kingdom to come mentioned in Micah’s prediction is associated threw many other scriptures throughout many different scriptural recording times over the course of 1500 years writings and testimonials. That is associated with the messiah coming and setting up His kingdom. rw: How do you account for the fact that Orthodox Jews do not agree with you? Jesus was a Jew…yes? Do you know how easy it is to make up a story with past writings to refer to for guidance in getting the storyline consistent? These lambs born in the tower of the flock were sometimes special, because in this field is where the sacrificial lambs were selected after they were born. And sacrificied at the Judaic temple for sins. The baby lambs were taken and wrapped in swaddling clothes to protect them from blemish or spot, and then placed in a manjor. There is no way man could have orchestrated all these events to follow when Jesus (Gods lamb for the world) was born at the tower of the flock, wrapped in swaddling clothes, and placed in a manjor. Especialy when you consider one evidence that, the people who had the temple, and sacrificied the lambs generally speaking did not believe their messiah had been born. In fact when the wise men showed up at Jurasalem 4 to 6 miles away. They asked where is the Christ, and they were directed to go to Bethleham. Funny thing here is a group of people waiting for a messiah to be born, and the prist don’t bother making a 4 mile trek to check it out. I think because like you they did not care to know even if it were true. And at the time, they did not know the significance of Where he was born. So that leaves their (Jews in general) motive to conspire and manipulate the person Jesus, non existent. Which is also evident by way of the evidence, and records given on hand. rw: Uh…no it doesn’t. The Jews in particular who may have conspired to invent the fill-ins may have done just that…invented the story of the wise men. Do you have any evidence outside the bible to support your claims here? You see life is like a court room, and in your post you have made a judgment and declared an unwillingness to even view the EVIDENCE at hand. rw: And you have failed to present convincing evidence before the court to sway the decision. Second hand hear-say is inadmissible in any court in the land. I need birth records, documentation, outside reliable sources testifying to these alleged events. This self-referential circularity of trying to use the bible to prove the bible is fallacious and amounts to a frivolous waste of the courts time. Next case please! Truly the true evidence man cannot make up. Nor conspire in order to manipulate people. . rw: Truly evidence that you have lost all objectivity in considering the evidence and are therefore terminated as a friend of the court. Turn in your credentials at the door on your way out. Which is much of what your words are. And I ad WITHOUT MERIT or ANY EVIDENCE to support your chosen faith, including your decided ignorance to view what the bible truly represents. And the evidence within it in regard to creation regardless to what a preacher may say about it or why. rw: And yet another arbitrary assertion of self-referential biased blind assertions. I personally think you have shot yourself in the foot, and have over looked the best thing death has to offer you. LIFE rw: You are entitled to think what ever secures your fantasy for you. And I ask you to instead of assuming your views are justified, look at the evidence at hand, ask others what they believe and why before you brand them unjust? rw: Certainly. As soon as you present some worthy of consideration. Start by accounting for the centuries of bloodshed and religious turmoil through-out the world and history of man. And even if 99.9% of the world population agreed a god exists that doesn’t make it any closer to truth than if they all agreed that 9/11 never happened. Make a decision based on the facts at hand, and discern what is untrue by way of evidence, not yours mine or anyones personal opinion. rw: As soon as you present some facts, rather than these emotional appeals to mythological poetic license, I will stand on the decision I’ve already made. You have no facts, evidence or proof…nothing but yours, and a host of others, wishful thinking. Wishing don’t make things so. | ||
| Eileen McGowan New member Username: emcgwn Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
John Dill wrote: “On the grounds of rationality, reason, logic and empirical irrefutable evidence. I appeal to right and wrong on the basis of trail and error reduction with functionality as the ultimate litmus test.” It seems to me that according to your worldview only the intellectually gifted people can really aspire to living a moral life. They are the only ones who would be capable of really knowing what is right and wrong by their study of empirical proof, and trails of error reduction. Those of us simpletons who can’t grasp the details of the theorems, proofs, evidence etc, would be doomed to a life of moral confusion or a life dependent on the “smart” people to tell us what right and wrong is. But intellectual knowledge does not always produce behavior that matches up with the knowledge. For example, when I was trying to lose weight I read lots about dieting, and became a virtual calorie and fat gram counting calculator. I knew what the healthy food choices were, but all those facts, which I intellectually believed, did not stop me from overeating. I overate because I wanted to in my heart, not because I believed intellectually that it was a good decision. I believed in my heart a whole bunch of other things that I used to rationalize my bad eating. Knowing facts about a subject and believing in your heart those facts apply to you are two different things. And what is in your heart determines what you are going to do. That’s why you can’t cure the world of immorality just by educating the world. Education is a part, but it’s only a part. Right and wrong behavior comes from the heart. And before kingdoms can change men’s hearts must change. Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts. Proverbs 21:3 | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 368 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
"“On the grounds of rationality, reason, logic and empirical irrefutable evidence. " Nope you have not got one drop of evidence other than the fact you are convinced of your chosen faith. The trouble with truth is it can be argued with lies that involve reason, and even seemingly make sense. "Calling me a hypocrite is claiming I am representing a position I do not believe to be true. I would appreciate an explanation of how you came upon this accusation and if one isn’t forthcoming I demand an apology, else I will put you on ignore." Blinded by your faith apparently you already have ignored me. I already addressed this issue in the rest of my post. you can be a hypocrite and actually believe your own hierocracy. to simplify your over complicated foolishness, of what I deem to be insanity. basically using only a humanistic view of measure for sake of argument. We have my faith vs. your faith. Thing is you are using the same measure to credit your faith, that you use to discredit mine. Think long and hard about that line. It may seem tricky but it's there. The distinction is in what actually is, and the true ASPECT of the evidences at hand. Regardless of what you or I choose to believe. And fact is you are hypocritical in your assault because the very charge you ACCUSE my faith of being, and being wrong for is the means you are using yourself, and in fact your accusation against my faith you are guilty of according to your own measure and it is also a false charge against mine. "I appeal to right and wrong on the basis of trail and error reduction with functionality as the ultimate litmus test." LOL one problem where did you get the initial formula of good and bad? And then how could you possibly measure all the results with only your senses? That is know all and have an accurate measure of yours verses others? I have a hard time typing my thoughts out they go to deep. So I will provide a provocative question. Who's to say your right and wrong is better than the people who flew the plains into the trade center? As far as blemish in historical record, religion is not the problem mankind is. Religion is one of the many means to carry out the problem; you were prejudice in your selective recordings. ironically though what I believe fits. No one is good. And can never be ultimately. No matter what faith they follow. And no one is capable of remedying this flaw, cause we are short of perfect. This is a realization not my solution. "rw: Do you have any written record or evidence outside your bible that a man name Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Are you sure the NT was not written by men looking back to make it appear these predictions aligned with their presentation? Demonstrate this not to be the case" yeah here let me write one. Jesus lives, and keeps, and has kept his promises in MY life, and in the lives of those who truly know Him. In fact also in the lives of those who do not. Good or bad. I have seen much evidence by way of discerning circumstance, and the unveiling of things throughout all known time in my life, and biblical record, including prophetic events. And the writings being in a way that the people writing it did not understand at the time that what they wrote would pertain to. that I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt to the point I know. And like the men in the bible I am convinced in a way that is greater than man made manipulations. The things I alone have seen could not have been part of this "conspiracy" you think exists. "rw: How do you account for the fact that Orthodox Jews do not agree with you? Jesus was a Jew…yes? Do you know how easy it is to make up a story with past writings to refer to for guidance in getting the storyline consistent? " I do not account for anything I can only observe the evidence at hand. Simple factor in your question. "free will" The record of Christ is of orthodox Jews. And sure it is easy to make up a story with past writings, but do you know that over 2004 years latter we are uncovering newly known to man distinct relative references regarding Christ within scriptures that men before us had not yet found. That’s profound for a book written and read by man. It isn’t like gone with the wind. And do you know how difficult it is in this story to include prophetic words 100% accurately 2004 years latter? Up to and including the existence of particular races of people, and most especially the JEW in particular. Underdogs time and time again. Yet they flourish. Do you know how easy it is to disbelieve something in plain view and then lay charges on it before investigating the magnitude of evidence? "rw: Uh…no it doesn’t. The Jews in particular who may have conspired to invent the fill-ins may have done just that…invented the story of the wise men. Do you have any evidence outside the bible to support your claims here? " yeah other biblical promises carried out in the lives of those who truly know Christ, and with the same level of consistency 100%. Evidence you do not have nor can witness. But can here about. Yet you will believe what you want to. "And you have failed to present convincing evidence before the court to sway the decision. Second hand hear-say is inadmissible in any court in the land. I need birth records, documentation, outside reliable sources testifying to these alleged events. This self-referential circularity of trying to use the bible to prove the bible is fallacious and amounts to a frivolous waste of the courts time. Next case please! " LOL the historical record on hand contains birth certificates of the entire lineage up to the person Christ. And done so over the course of 1000 of years between some people who did not even know the record they kept was a peace of the puzzle. People who did not know each other, and some of which who never had enough interaction to conspire these events. And also carried out in a way that is non human ERROR FREE. The credibility you have stripped them from steams from your hypocritical vain self indulgent credibility of your faith in the matter being greater than the record at hand. Using only your minds choice as your evidence. And ironically you made a record of it. So all I have to choose between is one mans record VS another. Yet one is only of an opinion and the other is saying I saw it. Because all you did is make up a hypothetical formula that mentally ascending can present an option of choice that seemingly disproves the actual evidence at hand. I think to pacify your conscience so that you feel justified in your assault (engaged warfare). And also the records given that I refer to are far from second hand. These are eyewitnesses, and nothing holds up better in a court of law than that of the record given by the eyewitness. Your testimony is like this Were you in the room when the crime happened? No but I think it did not hgappen because the guy who says it did could have made it up. The Jews today can, and would have to be able to, trace their lineage. Otherwise the other biblical prophecies could not be carried out. That is regarding the next rebuilding of the temple, the second coming of Christ after the false Christ, and the re introduction of the practicing of Judaism in the temple. They need these birth records in order to select the priests. They will also need to locate some ash from a red cow sacrifice, and a living red heifer. Which ironically they have the clothes made up the furniture, and certain bowls, a red heifer was born after all these years of none existing, they have potential elections for priests. Harp companies have been newly established in the neighborhood. Which ya need harps for the ceremonies. And they are carrying out a prophecy (like in the past) that they themselves do not believe. And those who do could not manipulate. "rw: Certainly. As soon as you present some worthy of consideration. Start by accounting for the centuries of bloodshed and religious turmoil through-out the world and history of man. And even if 99.9% of the world population agreed a god exists that doesn’t make it any closer to truth than if they all agreed that 9/11 never happened. " Religion is not the problem alone behind warfare, and neither are weapons, it's people like you who hypocritically feel self justified in going against something using elective measure to meet your means to your end. The heart of man is the flaw, and religion is one of many vehicles. And we all have faith in one form or another. Because we do not know all, and do not even remotely uphold what is before us, people come and go, but what we come and go within remains. And even that is only for a time, which was foretold before we had the means to measure this reality. Such as that son is going to run out of gas and fall from the sky. And man has evil set in their hearts as if by trying to find a way to live on we can survive, and one after the other they labor after these improvements overlooking the simple fact that death hit all their predecessors. Which happens to be in the bible also, that in the hearts of man we think we can evade death by having lands named after our children, or plaques hung up with our name on it, and a record of what we did. But we will be forgotten or not cared about in about three generations. I mentioned this because you were probably thinking in the hopes of space exploration, and that mankind will have a new habitat before the son blows up. Thing is we are limited by the resources at hand, which we did not provide, and our abilities to harvest, and labor with them. All elements out of our control. As far as introducing evidence we already have it laid out before our feet. And I have chosen the biblical word, in retrospect of the world around me. Including it being reliable to date as I place my faith in it, the results transpire in a way my faith alone would not cause me to see. Or manipulate an association. "rw: Oh really? Then what do you make of these verses? Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Or this one: 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. Now here is a clear case that your myth has man trapped between the inexplicable motives of two deities. Neither of them appear to be overly concerned about deceiving man. And you actually imagine that man is suppose to find any meaning, truth, wisdom, knowledge or respite from his troubles in this garbage? Your god has clearly indicated he has no qualms about lying to man to get his way: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: Want to drag out all the passages that are similarly orchestrated? " We live in a world where the results of what we choose are brought about to us. That is we get what we choose when it comes to faith, in God or satan God lets us choose freely. These passages are saying that when mankind choose to not believe in God they as a result do not. And unless they come to know Gods goodness (gospel) they will not believe that what they have chosen is wrong. Because without the power of God and ones choice in it. How can anyone know ones mans view is right and anothers is not? For example those who trust in the messiah came, and those who trust He is yet to come. I can not determine which is of good or evil using only my measure or even logic. One could be setting up the other hypothetically, Yet I know because God showed me. And that is something I can not show you, but only say. in the context of these results it is as so. God is the same always. And that is love. In illustration I will demonstrate with an imperfect example. that of the relationship between a loving mother and her child. The mother out of love will never reward a Childs evil choice with good. oh Jimmy thank you for hitting your sister in the head here is a candy bar. God is the same way. You tell him to get lost, or call him a liar; he lets you be blind by YOUR FREE WILL choice of FAITH. Or else he would not be just or loving. And we would all be robots. And the verses are basically saying the fundamental problem of mans unbelief in the ESTABLISHED unchanging law we were born into, can not be unveiled until that man accepts Gods kindness (the gospel). This is the clear cut reasoning and reality behind the words you elected. And if you would like to bring up more. I welcome it with a glad heart. "That man is responsible for building his own self esteem, " Here it is again being so blinded by your religious faith, in that you are a fool thinking you are wise and somehow know. You are negligent in the hierocracy you are using. And that is in the basic fundamental of where on earth did you get the accurate, and non human flawed measure of what true esteem is? I am dying to know. "rw: Uh…no it doesn’t. The Jews in particular who may have conspired to invent the fill-ins may have done just that…invented the story of the wise men. Do you have any evidence outside the bible to support your claims here? " LOL, LOL, LOL,LOL,LOL well I have a historical record for starters. But who is inventing things here?????? For example do you have any counter evidence of the same measure? You know a record that the wise men did not come, and these guys made it up. One that was written at the same time would suffice. The only viable or for sake of argument plausible solution or proclaimed plan for mankind’s problems such as all these murders performed in the name of mans religion (including your self deceived made up one) is that man can't solve the problem, and God did on the cross. And that he lets us see a taste of the results of mans evil in this life (that is but a vapor that will pass before your eyes.). In order that we may come to the metaphoric realization that there is a higher archy of evil and good, and now is when we choose which one we die belonging to. And all the means of physical evidence surrounding what we individually witness in the end it amounts to nothing, and has no value, or has the one our creator gave it and He can show anyone. That is a choice every individual is allowed to make. And for comfort I'll have you know I have not imprisoned, or murdered anyone because of my chosen faith in the gospel, and have not purposed it in my heart to ever do so. Yet I retain a belief in self defense. Isaiah 32:6 For the vile person will speak villany, and his heart will work iniquity, to practice hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail. You see if I were of the type of mind that would allow a man made fabrication of belief system (religion) knock down my esteem in order to keep my mind oppressed, well I would believe everything you had to say about my faith in Christ. And would relinquish the self esteem it gives me, through the knowledge of grace, and mercy. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 369 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
It's kind of interesting that you find "To teach man he is a depraved sinner is the epitomy of human destruction. " And then listed a bunch of acts that have been committed by people in the name of their chosen faith. like the inquisition. But why do you list them if they are not sin, or wrong? How do those things have a measure in your eyes? And how do you write a list of things I do that are of a morality? The word morality steams from the premise of the teachings that men can do good or evil. That is the fundamentals of sin itself. And the way that I do not obtain my morality or immorality any longer is in that I relinquished that to Christ, and His payment. And what I wrote that you did not understand is. That no one person upholds what is good or bad, in regards to what the bible claims, or a preacher. That is we cannot make up what they represent. And that is in regards to whatever any person or book may claim. The claim alone does not and can not represent what actually is. Even if the person speaking it does believe what they say or not. This is an observation of reality I understand, even though I am saying it. I do not uphold it. The claim or someone who chooses to disagree with a claim is not determined by ones perception, or misperception of the actuality of weather it is true or not. The laws of existence are eternal I can’t define them entirely, but we can and do gain a comprehension of the fundamentals. I can point out the evidences. Such as gravity. We know it's there (by faith in the evidence at hand) and work within it. Then our faith is collaborated by results. We do not and cannot change that, nor do we control it. It is far to complex for us to measure so we can only ever use faith. Even if we manipulate the earth or moons orbit, that to is within the laws of existence and gravity. or that a magnet passing by a wire, has many convinced that there is a law of electricity. And so on. Or you eat no food you starve. Including that we are not in total control of weather or not food will, and can be available. Do to unpredictable, change of which we have no control over. Carried out ultimately by the laws of existence. Never know hypothetically some big space matter could destroy all our crops, and sun light. Hypothetically speaking. We just have a sub part to work within these laws but remain a part of them, and subject to them. To me this is evidence of Gods will. As far as the Plethora of Evidence regarding Christ being authentic, we have the foundation of such faith. The bible. It's claims VS what transpires, and how. But with you stating that you have no desire to explore the possibility and call it a manipulative ploy to get you to follow religious tenants. It would be like me trying to convince a jury that murder is OK. And murder of them. And an FYI The bible teaches no one can follow the tenants, hence the need for grace, and Christ’s payments. And only that alone. Not that there is a measure of growth or attempt to follow a good virtues morality with a temporary measure of true reward in this life. You know like go to work get paid. And don't go don’t get paid. Steal and loose out in the long run etc. But it is not a form of slavery being tough by the bible itself for some “conspiring purpose to control man to follow some bogus organization.. Many religions abusing the bible do just what you say and make a lot of cash in the process. But the bible teaches only by grace (undeserved merit). And so do some preachers who preach the bible. And then I look at your preaching. Like it is wrong to teach people it's wrong, and that causes wars and so on. So you decide to engauge in warfare against such preaching, and preach how people are wrong for calling people wrong. And then hold up some records of peoples wrong doings, yet only selecting religios oriented ones. When probably most murders have been commited do to the lack of religion. | ||
| Dave Geisler New member Username: daveg Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
I think that this streaming sermon titled Know Jesus is a great example and answers a lot of the questions that are out there. Very Interesting...take a look http://www.activeword.org/Media-Player.cfm?fn=T1272h&source=Sanctuary&format=Rea lVideo The home page is www.activeword.org Any comments would be greatly appreciated. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 372 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
You welcomed comments so I share mine. I did not listen to the entire sermon but this is what I thought about what I did hear. I belive that there is nothing new under the sun like is said in ecclesisastes, and that Christ was always the force for change of true good in mankind even before He came. the sermon should not have said what if He did not come, but what if he did not exist. Because the history of good and evil, has been since the begining of man, and Christ has always been a working factor. To quote some changes made in regions do to Christs teachings can be a dangerous thing. Because the measures used, like with the change of human value from a few bucks to no price, can also take place from another form of religious faith without Jesus. You know the wolf in sheeps clothing. Not that I do not atribute the changed lives being a direct result of a peoples faith in Christ,and Christs actual work being performed, but good change is also mimicked without Christ. Especialy with a religion of good works. a sobering thought on the matter is this, you can go to hell sober or drunk. And a Christian can be consumed of the evil things of this world. the true measure of results was on the cross, and will be given to all and how they view the cross, and it will be given on judgement day. Until then to measure it by mans actions alone, can be confusing, becuause the world can behave better than a Christian, and vise versa. That is the walt Disney syndrome, the other guy is bad, and I am the good guy. Truly we are all bad, and fall short of Gods glory, saved by grace, or unsaved. The results of measure of what happend on the cross is grace alone. serving and results within that Christians still fall short (not that we should not aspire) and the world can mimick what we have been called to do. And should have a desire to do. See I could open a soup kitchen in the name of me, and people would get fed real food. Would it demonstrate what If I was not born? Not if we have well fed people who go to hell. And not that the goodness of temporary measure on Earth is helpfull to bring the knowledge of Gods goodness of eternal value. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 373 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
the point I was trying to make is this. I would rather be sold for 7 bucks and be eaten, in exchange for what Jesus did for me on the cross. And that changing human value from 7 bucks, including instructions for how you could cook that human, to no price did not solve one thing in particular, in the end they still die anyway. What Christ did was redeem man from that, which until I get the transfer i have to wait it out in a world where people have suffered at the hand of evil for doing what is good both before and after Christ came. and people seemingly benifit for evil. or vise versa you benifit for doing what is good, or suffer for wrong. like as in with Job the example is in that in the end God's reward will be there. Not now, now we accept it, in death we recieve it, and only then will it be in perfect measure. For now we get both good and bad saved and unsaved. | ||
| John Dill Junior Member Username: rainbow_walking Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
Eileen: It seems to me that according to your worldview only the intellectually gifted people can really aspire to living a moral life. They are the only ones who would be capable of really knowing what is right and wrong by their study of empirical proof, and trails of error reduction. Those of us simpletons who can’t grasp the details of the theorems, proofs, evidence etc, would be doomed to a life of moral confusion or a life dependent on the “smart” people to tell us what right and wrong is. rw: Eileen, everyone has an intellect. How they apply it to securing any content is another story. Your complaint fails on several fronts. 1. Appealing to the authority of the bible is no different than seeking knowledge from any other book. You seem to be saying that the bible is a way for the intellectually lazy to know right from wrong. Unfortunately the bible doesn't give any great detail on very specific areas of human behavior like slavery, murder, rape, lying and theft. The bible contains many passages where god has either directed or sanctioned such behavior. 2. Appealing to the bible for intellectual guidance only leads you to some man or groups interpretation of what they think it means. Still no help here in knowing the truth, just opinions. Eileen: But intellectual knowledge does not always produce behavior that matches up with the knowledge. For example, when I was trying to lose weight I read lots about dieting, and became a virtual calorie and fat gram counting calculator. I knew what the healthy food choices were, but all those facts, which I intellectually believed, did not stop me from overeating. I overate because I wanted to in my heart, not because I believed intellectually that it was a good decision. I believed in my heart a whole bunch of other things that I used to rationalize my bad eating. Knowing facts about a subject and believing in your heart those facts apply to you are two different things. And what is in your heart determines what you are going to do. rw: Again I see several holes in your reasoning immediately. 1. I never claimed knowledge alone would ensure moral behavior. Prisons are full of people who knew it was illegal to do what they did, as well as immoral, in many cases. The gulf between identification and application will always remain a variable. 2. To say that knowledge alone doesn't ensure compliance, while true, tends to mask several facts. First, many so called morals are inconsistent with human nature and thus very difficult to practice consistently. Second, to observe these inconsistencies is to give one the impression that knowledge isn't even a factor in moral behavior when this clearly isn't the case. That is why courts often seek to determine the defendants level of comprehension of the severity of the charges against him to ascertain he even has a moral comprehension of the crimes he's been accused of. Eileen: That’s why you can’t cure the world of immorality just by educating the world. Education is a part, but it’s only a part. Right and wrong behavior comes from the heart. And before kingdoms can change men’s hearts must change. rw: And that dichotomy between mind and "heart" is part of the problem. All sentient cognitive and emotional choices are worked out in the mind. There is no separate organ where the will is formed independant of the mind. Eileen: Every man's way is right in his own eyes, .... Proverbs 21:3 rw: And this is wrong? Would you prefer every man's way be wrong in his own eyes? This is not to say that morality is relative, but that man's mind must be attuned with his eyes and his moral behavior will follow. It is precisely man's ability to blank out and ignore reality in favor of myths that cause many such cases of immorality. There are many complex factors involved in establishing a motive/will/way to conduct oneself. Teaching that man must love all people indescriminately without warrent is not consistent to human nature or reality. Men need to learn to respect one another and the rest will follow. Those who employ mental imagery as though it were real are often the first to abuse repsect and tend towards demonizing anyone who doesn't join them in their fantasies. The selfish man is consistent to his nature and knows to trade value for value rather than prostitute his personal worth out to whomsoever has some claim of need. It is better to allow the foolish to wallow in their pig sty than to rush in out of some contorted "love" and make it more comfortable for them. This is the only genuine way people learn about reality and respect. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him to fish and he can feed himself everyday. | ||
| John Dill Junior Member Username: rainbow_walking Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
rw earlier "“On the grounds of rationality, reason, logic and empirical irrefutable evidence. " Nope you have not got one drop of evidence other than the fact you are convinced of your chosen faith. rw: Fine Jason…just as soon as you provide more than your say-so based on wishful thinking and mystical mind numbing acrobatics, we can compare your appeals to faith with reason, rationality, logic and empirical evidence to see which is true. The trouble with truth is it can be argued with lies that involve reason, and even seemingly make sense. . rw: The trouble with theists who purport to know truth is the implausible and verbose means they attempt to do so while saying nothing at all. rw earlier "Calling me a hypocrite is claiming I am representing a position I do not believe to be true. I would appreciate an explanation of how you came upon this accusation and if one isn’t forthcoming I demand an apology, else I will put you on ignore." Blinded by your faith apparently you already have ignored me. I already addressed this issue in the rest of my post. you can be a hypocrite and actually believe your own hierocracy. rw: And this is a classical tactic of the theist. Unable to force reality to conform to his wishful thinking he employs re-definition to common terms to twist them in such a way as to convince himself his appeals to mysticism are justified. May I suggest you invest in a dictionary and use it. snip rw earlier "I appeal to right and wrong on the basis of trail and error reduction with functionality as the ultimate litmus test." LOL one problem where did you get the initial formula of good and bad? And then how could you possibly measure all the results with only your senses? That is know all and have an accurate measure of yours verses others? rw: Do you know the difference between “right and wrong” and “good and bad”? Re-read my above statement and show me where I appealed to “good and bad”. I have a hard time typing my thoughts out they go to deep. So I will provide a provocative question. Who's to say your right and wrong is better than the people who flew the plains into the trade center? rw: According to the mystical mindset it isn’t. It weren’t atheists pulling such stunts Jason, or have you forgotten? Where was your god? Why does he employ a methodology of communicating with man that has lead to so many conflicting religions and denominational factions? Is he incapable of presenting the same message to all men everywhere through-out time? Doesn’t seem like much of a god. OTH, a world where so much religious diversity exists is precisely what we’d expect to see if gods and religion were man made mystical fantasies used to subvert the minds of the innocent until they become human killing machines. To answer your question, intrinsic value of life is all the foundation man needs to build a moral standard of right and wrong consistent to his nature. As far as blemish in historical record, religion is not the problem mankind is. rw: Wrong again Jason. Theists begin with man as a moral zero so they can’t help but blame everything bad on man rather than looking at the ideologies he’s born into that direct a majority of his perspective on how to live among men. I won’t mince words here Jason but the world would be immensely better off without any religion period. Religion is one of the many means to carry out the problem; you were prejudice in your selective recordings. rw: Religion and god belief IS THE PROBLEM Jason, not a vehicular means to it. Religion is a systematic way of bringing the problems it creates into a pseudo-reality using words and playing on prejudices it has spent centuries fostering to activate human behaviors that manifest in a multitude of immoral acts. You want to isolate religion just like you do god belief from the causative factors in many of the world’s problems and suffering but I won’t let you. Religion and mysticism has preyed on man’s ignorance far too long. It’s time to begin the gradual but ever increasing pressure of squashing it back into the primordial swamps from which it arose as an accompaniment to man’s ignorance. ironically though what I believe fits. No one is good. And can never be ultimately. No matter what faith they follow. And no one is capable of remedying this flaw, cause we are short of perfect. This is a realization not my solution. rw: Realize this Jason…your convoluted definition of perfect also derives from that same mysticism, so you are hardly objective in making such an unwarranted claim. Man does not have to be perfect or meet the pseudo-standards of some religious myth like Jesus to be moral. That’s all part of the mysticism that encourages man to confer the responsibility for his behavior onto a non-existent god while these self appointed professional mouth pieces tell men what to think and believe, curiously always to suite their needs and interpretations of the world according to that same myth. Jettison the myth and all this special pleading for man to conform to some skewed definition of perfect vanishes along with the excuses you have to erect for a non-existent god who never was able to contribute anything meaningful to man’s condition and never will. Minds given over to this tripe are part and parcel of the problem and have never offered or represented a solution. What’s your solution? “My daddy Jesus is coming back one day to whip your butt, you just wait and see.” "rw earlier : Do you have any written record or evidence outside your bible that a man name Jesus was born in Bethlehem? Are you sure the NT was not written by men looking back to make it appear these predictions aligned with their presentation? Demonstrate this not to be the case" yeah here let me write one. Jesus lives, and keeps, and has kept his promises in MY life, and in the lives of those who truly know Him. rw: Yet again you retreat into fideism and appeal to anecdotal evidence rather than anything resembling the reality of what genuine evidence really is. So sad. In fact also in the lives of those who do not. Good or bad. I have seen much evidence by way of discerning circumstance, and the unveiling of things throughout all known time in my life, and biblical record, including prophetic events. rw: You see nothing Jason but what you want to see strained thru your mystical god belief filters and twisted around to make it fit your cognitive dissonance. That is all you see and all you can say. Not one ounce…nada…shred of plausible evidence has been put forth by you in almost a month of discussing this, and never will. And the writings being in a way that the people writing it did not understand at the time that what they wrote would pertain to. that I am convinced beyond a reasonable doubt to the point I know. And like the men in the bible I am convinced in a way that is greater than man made manipulations. The things I alone have seen could not have been part of this "conspiracy" you think exists. rw: Prove it. "rw earlier: How do you account for the fact that Orthodox Jews do not agree with you? Jesus was a Jew…yes? Do you know how easy it is to make up a story with past writings to refer to for guidance in getting the storyline consistent? " I do not account for anything I can only observe the evidence at hand. rw: What evidence? Where is it outside your imagination? Simple factor in your question. "free will" The record of Christ is of orthodox Jews. And sure it is easy to make up a story with past writings, but do you know that over 2004 years latter we are uncovering newly known to man distinct relative references regarding Christ within scriptures that men before us had not yet found. That’s profound for a book written and read by man. rw: What are they Jason? You keep droning on and on about all these alleged discoveries and haven’t presented anything. It isn’t like gone with the wind. And do you know how difficult it is in this story to include prophetic words 100% accurately 2004 years latter? Up to and including the existence of particular races of people, and most especially the JEW in particular. Underdogs time and time again. Yet they flourish. Do you know how easy it is to disbelieve something in plain view and then lay charges on it before investigating the magnitude of evidence? rw: Ever read the Iliad by Homer, the Enuma Elish, Code of Hammurabi, Aesopp’s Fables? You think the basic myth of Jesus is all original? Have you made an effort to research any of the comparative religions that predated Christianity by a thousand years that included virgin births, resurrections and sons of the gods? Ever heard of Zoarastor or Anaximander? "rw earlier: Uh…no it doesn’t. The Jews in particular who may have conspired to invent the fill-ins may have done just that…invented the story of the wise men. Do you have any evidence outside the bible to support your claims here? " yeah other biblical promises carried out in the lives of those who truly know Christ, and with the same level of consistency 100%. Evidence you do not have nor can witness. But can here about. Yet you will believe what you want to. rw: That’s not evidence of anything other than men have a penchant for believing the mystical. Anecdotal evidence will never ever verify the authenticity of the gospel narratives Jason. rw earlier "And you have failed to present convincing evidence before the court to sway the decision. Second hand hear-say is inadmissible in any court in the land. I need birth records, documentation, outside reliable sources testifying to these alleged events. This self-referential circularity of trying to use the bible to prove the bible is fallacious and amounts to a frivolous waste of the courts time. Next case please! " LOL the historical record on hand contains birth certificates of the entire lineage up to the person Christ. And done so over the course of 1000 of years between some people who did not even know the record they kept was a peace of the puzzle. People who did not know each other, and some of which who never had enough interaction to conspire these events. And also carried out in a way that is non human ERROR FREE. rw: What!!!? You can’t be serious. Have you ever made a comparison between the genealogies in Matthew and Luke? They are as different as night and day. If they are so accurate in attesting to the validity of the gospels why did Paul include these passages in the NT: 1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. The credibility you have stripped them from steams from your hypocritical vain self indulgent credibility of your faith in the matter being greater than the record at hand. Using only your minds choice as your evidence. And ironically you made a record of it. So all I have to choose between is one mans record VS another. Yet one is only of an opinion and the other is saying I saw it. rw: Sure Jason, run for the circularity of “the bible is true because I believe it”. Because all you did is make up a hypothetical formula that mentally ascending can present an option of choice that seemingly disproves the actual evidence at hand. rw: When you actually present some evidence outside the bible that the gospels are nothing more than myth woven out of Jewish traditions we’ll talk. When you actually introduce something from the bible that doesn’t have five other contradictory passages we’ll talk. Until then, you’re only trying to convince yourself. I think to pacify your conscience so that you feel justified in your assault (engaged warfare). And also the records given that I refer to are far from second hand. These are eyewitnesses, and nothing holds up better in a court of law than that of the record given by the eyewitness. rw: Harharharhar…bring your eyewitnesses to court Jason. Got any addresses we can send a subpoena to? Your testimony is like this Were you in the room when the crime happened? No but I think it did not hgappen because the guy who says it did could have made it up. rw: Grasping for straws Jason, that’s all you’ve got. Fideism posturing as logic and reason. The Jews today can, and would have to be able to, trace their lineage. Otherwise the other biblical prophecies could not be carried out. rw: Do you think the modern Jew can trace his lineage? What a laugh. After the diaspora no one knows what became of literally hundreds of thousands of these people who belonged to ten of the twelve tribes. And after the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians there goes the rest of the lot. All that remained behind were the riff raff that the Babylonians didn’t want and most of them inter-married with other tribes around them. For someone boasting of biblical literality you sure are woefully lacking in even the essentials of biblical historical knowledge. Listen Jason, I am a Jew and I know my own history. Do you seriously think the Orthodox Jew will support your contentions? They hate Christians and will tell you so to your face. That is regarding the next rebuilding of the temple, the second coming of Christ after the false Christ, and the re introduction of the practicing of Judaism in the temple. They need these birth records in order to select the priests. They will also need to locate some ash from a red cow sacrifice, and a living red heifer. Which ironically they have the clothes made up the furniture, and certain bowls, a red heifer was born after all these years of none existing, they have potential elections for priests. Harp companies have been newly established in the neighborhood. Which ya need harps for the ceremonies. And they are carrying out a prophecy (like in the past) that they themselves do not believe. And those who do could not manipulate. rw: When I read stuff like this it makes me wonder if somewhere there isn’t a village missing an idiot. "rw earlier: Certainly. As soon as you present some worthy of consideration. Start by accounting for the centuries of bloodshed and religious turmoil through-out the world and history of man. And even if 99.9% of the world population agreed a god exists that doesn’t make it any closer to truth than if they all agreed that 9/11 never happened. " Religion is not the problem alone behind warfare, and neither are weapons, it's people like you who hypocritically feel self justified in going against something using elective measure to meet your means to your end. The heart of man is the flaw, and religion is one of many vehicles. rw: If a god such as yours existed he would not be worthy of worship, much less building a religion around. The biblical god is a blood thirsty prejudicial tyrannical has been invention of a tribe of bronze age warrior like semi-nomadic murderers, just like all the other murdering peoples in whose midst they dwelt. Just look at the product of this mysticism today in the Middle East Jason. You think the self proclaimed Jews are guiltless in all that bloodshed? And we all have faith in one form or another. Because we do not know all, and do not even remotely uphold what is before us, people come and go, but what we come and go within remains. And even that is only for a time, which was foretold before we had the means to measure this reality. Such as that son is going to run out of gas and fall from the sky. rw: You believe the son is riding around in the sky using a fossil fuel engine for locomotion? And man has evil set in their hearts as if by trying to find a way to live on we can survive, and one after the other they labor after these improvements overlooking the simple fact that death hit all their predecessors. rw: Right, so we should all just sit down and wait on your jesus to come rescue us. Which happens to be in the bible also, that in the hearts of man we think we can evade death by having lands named after our children, or plaques hung up with our name on it, and a record of what we did. But we will be forgotten or not cared about in about three generations. I mentioned this because you were probably thinking in the hopes of space exploration, and that mankind will have a new habitat before the son blows up. Thing is we are limited by the resources at hand, which we did not provide, and our abilities to harvest, and labor with them. rw: You must mean “sun” that is spelled S-U-N and is a mediocre class 2 star in a universe with literally billions of them. According to current estimates ours is likely not to begin expanding towards super nova for several billion years. What man is facing in a few million years is the fact that our galaxy is on a collision course with Andromeda. You think jesus will be around by then? "rw earlier: Oh really? Then what do you make of these verses? Romans 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. Or this one: 2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. Now here is a clear case that your myth has man trapped between the inexplicable motives of two deities. Neither of them appear to be overly concerned about deceiving man. And you actually imagine that man is suppose to find any meaning, truth, wisdom, knowledge or respite from his troubles in this garbage? Your god has clearly indicated he has no qualms about lying to man to get his way: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: Want to drag out all the passages that are similarly orchestrated? " We live in a world where the results of what we choose are brought about to us. That is we get what we choose when it comes to faith, in God or satan God lets us choose freely. These passages are saying that when mankind choose to not believe in God they as a result do not. And unless they come to know Gods goodness (gospel) they will not believe that what they have chosen is wrong. Because without the power of God and ones choice in it. How can anyone know ones mans view is right and anothers is not? rw: What do these verses have to do with anything you just said Jason. They clearly demonstrate man has no freewill choice. According to these passages, and many others, (some of which I’ll include here), your mystical god is the one who does the picking and choosing concerning who believes and who doesn’t. For example: Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, And: Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, For example those who trust in the messiah came, and those who trust He is yet to come. And this: Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. And while we’re on the subject, can you apologize away this apparent lie Jesus told his disciples: John 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? 32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. Compared with this: Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? I can not determine which is of good or evil using only my measure or even logic. One could be setting up the other hypothetically, Yet I know because God showed me. And that is something I can not show you, but only say. in the context of these results it is as so. God is the same always. And that is love. In illustration I will demonstrate with an imperfect example. that of the relationship between a loving mother and her child. The mother out of love will never reward a Childs evil choice with good. oh Jimmy thank you for hitting your sister in the head here is a candy bar. God is the same way. You tell him to get lost, or call him a liar; he lets you be blind by YOUR FREE WILL choice of FAITH. rw: You are completely self deluded. Your analogies are not even remotely analogous to the meaning of the passages I provided. Yours is a clear case of complete indoctrination. rw earlier"That man is responsible for building his own self esteem, " Here it is again being so blinded by your religious faith, in that you are a fool thinking you are wise and somehow know. You are negligent in the hierocracy you are using. And that is in the basic fundamental of where on earth did you get the accurate, and non human flawed measure of what true esteem is? I am dying to know. rw: And you are a religious fanatical I-D-I-O-T. You like name calling? I will give you a healthy dose to chew on you blinded, self deluded, pompous, excuse for a human being. This will be my last response to you. Go and bury your head back in your fantasy where it belongs. You are, without a doubt, the classic example of a mind on religion. | ||
| Dave Geisler Junior Member Username: daveg Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world so that He might condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. Joh 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness more than the light, because their works were evil. Joh 3:20 For everyone that does evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works be exposed. Joh 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God." rw...who do you say that Jesus is? | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 374 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
John I did not read your entire post. It was non interesting to me. Funny how you lay these so called charges of theistic manipulations and tactics. That being a measure of good and not good. You do not seem interested in knowing if there is any evidence to support your claim. As you provide consistant views of your faith only. Convinced you are correct in your own eyes. And unopen to see any evidence supporting Christ and God. So I see no point in going to war with you. assault someone else. I have no desire to defend myself of your charge, and charges. If you care to know what my faith is based on and the evidence I chose. And are interested in weather it may or may not be valid, be sure and let me know. Until that time I see no need, or good cause to engauge in this childish warfare. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 375 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
Dave Christ to me is the payment for all amns sins. And only good to those like me who have chosen to recieve that payment by way of becoming born again, of the Holy spirit. Washed by faith in His blood. He is the entire law, and person of the testimony given in scripture. plainly, spiritualy, and metaphoricly. | ||
| joycewalsh New member Username: joycewalsh Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
Hi To all, I just read an interesting book called "The Da Vinci Code" by Dan Brown. Jason, You reminded me of the character named Silas, in this book. I don't know you and I can't judge you in anyway other than to say that the character who had faith, who will do anything( not knowing there is another view or truth) for the name of faith. But sadly, he was so deceived and betrayed. Even people with high intelligence can still be deceived by something, a good example is a thing called faith. I don't know alot of things about history concerning Christianity(what I mean is, I am not a scholar or historian) other than that,I can share something to tell you the difference. When I was in my early age, I went to church by neighbour or some class mate's suggestion. Many years later I met my practice of Buddism and chanting. I noticed immediate actual proof unfolding in my life and in my environment. My prayer then and now is different because my life has changed for the better, now I practice not only for myself but others's happiness as well. I want to make a point that I experienced two sides(actually some other things that I'll not go into detail). I have been fortunate that I have the experiences to know the difference. I know how sad it would've been if I'd died without knowing this practice(the other side), die deceived by wrong and misguided teachings. Again, heaven and hell exist in this daily life of people. Have you ever experienced someone who lied to you or took advantage of you? How did you feel? I would say that is one of the conditions of hell(I mean it depends on how serious were the lies, even though a lie is still a hurtful thing). Would'nt you feel angry and then sad? All of those things. But at least one would've found out while one is still alive and able to deal with it. When one dies not knowing about the truth will be one of the worst hells(such as misguided faith by wrong influence all one's life)among other conditions of hell. Earlier I talked about the book. Again it was an interesting book and fascinating. One of the things I disagreed with was that it talked about Buddism not directly by author but by one of characters giving an example about fabrication of religion that says,"...Buddha came from Lotus flower..., I don't want that gives wrong notion to people who don't have any knowledge of Buddhism as that is what it is, it is not. People who know the history of Buddhism know that Siddhartha was born as a prince. That is a long time ago. The Buddha of latter day whose name is known as Nichiren Daishonin, was born in 13th century Japan to a fisher man, a very lowly class at that time. There is documentary proof of all of his writings. RW, I again, appreciate your writing, please don't give up your dialogue. Somebody will listen out there. One day. Jason, I also want to ask you please stay open to dialogue and others view. Thank you to all. Please check out www.sgiusa.org | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 381 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
Joyce. I believe this life of temporary measure. Is a sample to all. A sample of testament. A testament of good and evil. Definitions of truth that is imbedid in the hearts of all men. Imbeded by the definer of such values. That authority of definition can not stem from man. Yet every man knows they have that value within them. And every man has free will. And all men use faith. Be it in what is evil or false. But each man defines his chosen faith as good. Or accepts the definition of what is true good, defined by our creator. And both the simple and the intellectual make a choice of faith based on their abilities to percieve. Be it in simple truth, to simple lie. To complex truths or complex lies. The purpose of all the testimant to mankind within creation we all are subject to, is so that we may choose which we worship. Be it good or evil. But all men will say there chosen faith is good in the realm of religion. The realm of truth men will say I am not good, and only the creator, and authority of what is good can make me good. That is one of the many things that differentiates Christ from all other faiths. And perhaps you should attempt to be more learned of the historical documents regarding Christ. there is much evidence man could not conspire, pointing to one simple truth. He is authentic, of God, and the only perfect offer of redemption to ALL imperfect men. The evidence is Historic, present, and future. and the History that has unvailed so far is dynamic, and just downright awesome to mans abilities of perception when they are willing to be corrected, and or see things for true or false. opening the mind that we did not create, nor determine where a faith leads. I thought Budha was more of a philospher whose writtings developed into mroe of a religoon after his death? As far as opening my mind to other faiths. All I can say is this, my name is Jason, if someone came along and said be open minded to others who call you Steve, or Joe, or Bob. I could not becuase I am Jason. Which was decided before I was born. when it comes to open mindedness there are two choices we can open our minds to. True or false. One truth, limitless lies. And that is true of all aspects of life. better wording good or evil. There is only one good (truth), and empty, endless, bottomless, missleading, evil. Not all peoples faiths can be true. I have found the truth, that demonstrates, and demonstrated a change of the most importatnt appointment man will face. Death. For Christ is the only one who overcame that in all these different faiths to choose from. Many claim it, but only one has demonstrated it so clearly. he did not come back as a different person, reccognized by faith alone (which can be easily fabricated by lies) But as the same person in a new glorified body recognozed for who He is as he did not forget, nor change. he even had the scars of His death. he rememberd life before his death, and after. The only thing that can open a mans mind is the truth. otherwise we have faith in missleading lies called truth. our faith and open mindedness does not determine which is true or false. But the author of truth alone can only show us. And the love of maniind over the love of the maker of mankind is one of the leading sources to the path of lies, as man is a liar Here we get a sample of good and evil, in order to choose the eternal destiny. Religoion says do this and do that and you may measure up to good. Christ says no man can do good becaause all man is less than perfect, as defined by perfection (God) and He paid the perfect price no man could, and can never. Recieve His payment and you will be perfect in the eyes of the authority of perfection (perfect God). The temporary meaures of goodness provided by good works in this life, is ment to be a testimony of Gods goodness not mans. man can take it upon himself (take Gods law into His own hands) and call themselves good. That is the missleading of true to false, No one is good. We all have commited an act of what you call hell. And can not undo it. religion is the paccifier, when God has Honey, wheat, milk, and meat. And only God, because He defined it as good, not man. Man is capable of lie, truth is not. look for truth then not just by mans measure. and religion can patch together a life, make it feel secure, it will provide fixes to seeming problems, make note of my words, they are a warning of love and truth, when one follows a lie, it is like a frog in a pan of water, if you slowly heat the water up you will kill the frog before it knows it is in danger. As time goes on and you follow your faith, of what you believe is good, I ask that you keep your mind open to this. Is the water getting hotter, and am I worse off now than when I started down this path. The God I trust, and Hos word says 1 out of one time any one going down the wrong path will be worse off at near the end than from the begining. And I believe one can fond self esteem, and worth in a false religion, and feel secure, and see real results, but it is only a bandaid to the greatest appointment man faces. Death And in this world it will always bear thorns, as God promissed it would. And as I look arround I see no sollution on Earth, this life, nor any "religion". And only one promise to be solved with a new Earth, and a new body, and a perfect payment for the passage to such promise. Christ. If I see something greater than Christs love, and His having authenticated it beyond my abilities, and choices. Then I will open my mind. But beacause it is the one true sollution that I did not create, nor mainifest in my life, it is like being open to being called Steve, instead of Jason. It can not happen becuase Christ bound himslelf to me and fulfilled every promise He has made to me. Which includes He will show me the truth, and keep me as His own. That is a bind that occured, and is kept by a force that is greater than anything man has to offfer me including my own missleading mind. And a promise of truth offerd to you to recieve. I have a child, my 1st born son. he is dear to me and beloved. To think of myself choosing to let him go die for a crack head or a murderer is impossible. I am incapable of such love to evil. For it is the means of testament God chose to demonstrate His love to an evil world, your evil self and my evil self included. he already died for you. to make it in vain would be the greatest loss you could face, and that is demonstrated in this life by the measure of death in exchange for life. Christ promises you life, wont you open your mind to see if He is authentic? What have you got to loose? You can still keep Budhas laws. | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 382 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
I once saw a pin at a store, it made me laugh, but now will not leave my mind. It is profound, and true. And makes me think about relgion. It said "eat well stay fit and die anyway" religion pacifies and detains death, but never conquores it. and never undoes the evil in this world, only masks it, or sweeps the dust under the carpet. Christ said no matter what this world is curssed. Follow me and I will bring you to a new everlasting fix. And in the mean time life is not good, and will have great heart aches. and you will suffer. He's the only one who said it as it is. And will be, and it has been as he said. | ||
| joycewalsh New member Username: joycewalsh Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
Hi Jason, a Buddha is an awakened one while a deluded person is a common mortal. I have a Buddahood or Enlightened nature within me. Buddha is not some ideal being. When I manifest my Budda nature by chanting these words: Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo, my powerful self emeges. I don't become someone else but I manifest great life force, compassion, wisdom, joy, all of these positive life conditions in me. When I use this newly gained strong life force and all the other positive virtues, I can live my daily life, with strength with all these powers I have won in my daily life. With joy and vigor I win in my life! I create value. I do not seek outside forces to save me. I know when I win in my daily life and months and years that is actual proof. Good life good death, good eternity! Make good cause Make good karma born with good karma, healthy body, healthy mind. Contribute to society by being productive creating positive value for happiness of humankind. enjoy life without guilt or sin(If one is born with bad karma, it can be changed) Win in life! I choose a good life I choose the winning side. I choose powerful "ME". Buddhism is very real. My practice strengtens me to live with vitality to move towards sun not to seek the dark hole where the guilty and weak-self resides. Fight to break free from the shackles of karma that one's own self has created. When one has that kind of fighting sprit, one grows as a human being becoming joyful more than ever. Show example. Yes, life is suffering but we won't be defeated and we will overcome. Winning is joy! I will do the work. So will millions of people, in 187 countries, who found this practice and who are ready and changing their lives around with this powerful practice. Changing karma one by one. Changing the destiny of humankind! I respect you as you are Jason. I only hope to continue dialogue without getting angry with one another. I will not ask you to be open minded to change your faith. You share your view with me and I'll share my view. We can have good happy dialogue. We all can live harmoniously! | ||
| jasonjvalentine Advanced Member Username: jasonjvalentine Post Number: 386 Registered: 08-2003 Rating: N/A |
I am not angry often on rare occassion. But I am brash. where does the definiton of good life or bad life come from? If it comes from within then why have a self defined bad life you need to overcome? Cut to the chase and call evrything good, like anger, hate, murder, stealing, lies. cause no matter how much anyone has practiced there chosen faith. Those things are far from having been changed. And not even remotely close to being conquered. At least not by any man born of the seed of man. And if only the self can obtain value then why not value all as good? rather than being conflicted within by means of your own self, being the only definitive authority of what is productive, and so on. Like you could wake up and think hmm I feel like being angry at someone and feed on that and just decide to define it as productive. As you are your only authority? and i made a mistake on one of my posts. It is not buddhas law. Just his observations of an already existing law he was born in, outside of his will, and out of his poer to define. as far as your defining hell as one who follows missinformation, and the associating that analogy to me, after having said you do not want to be judgemental. 1st I hope you don;t pick up a gun, and tell me you don't want to shoot me in the head with it in order to pacify your conscience of shooting me. Just an illustration to get you thinking. And then who are you then to define my chosen path (which has been presented to you and you rejected it) as a lie? That is if to you it is me who defines what is missinformation to me, and not you?? I reject your lies, and believe that truth is not defined by you, or me but by truth itself. That being God. and it is you and I who choose which we want to follow be it the truth or lie. But I can not decide what is truth alone, but decide the truth that already is. Same goes for the lies. We choose, and the two remain the same regardless of how we may confuse them. Just I do not recognize your decided faith as being able to define what is true about Christ, especialy with all the evidence pointing against your claim. | ||
| John Dill Junior Member Username: rainbow_walking Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2003 Rating: N/A |
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world so that He might condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. Joh 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness more than the light, because their works were evil. Joh 3:20 For everyone that does evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works be exposed. Joh 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his works may be revealed, that they have been done in God." rw...who do you say that Jesus is? http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins.htm | ||
| Jeremy Grimes New member Username: ueartist Post Number: 1 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Dostoevsky: "The old man longed for Him to say something, however bitter and terrible. But He suddenly appraoched the old man in silence and softly kissed him on his bloodless, aged lips. That was all his answer." John, I too kiss you. | ||
| Ahmet Armagan New member Username: carmagan Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
This world is a field of trial and examination, and a place of striving where the humanbeing is accountable for his/her actions. Accountability and examination require that reality remains veiled so that through competition and striving the good people may rise to the highest of the high and the bad people may enter among the lowest of the low. If the innocent remained untouched by such disasters, the bad people would submit just like the good people, and the door of spiritual and moral progress through striving would be closed and the mystery of accountability spoiled. Since Divine wisdom requires that oppressed and oppressor are together afflicted by disaster, what then is the share of the wretched oppressed of Divine mercy and justice? It was said in reply to this question: for them there is a manifestation of mercy within the wrath and anger in the disaster. For just as the transient property of the innocent becomes like alms and gains permanence, the relatively little and temporary difficulty and torment is a form of martyrdom for them which also gains for their transient lives a permanent life. The disaster earns for them a huge, perpetual profit, so for them is an instance of Divine mercy within the wrath. | ||
| amy Junior Member Username: amylc Post Number: 17 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Ahamet--Beautifully written.I understand you to be saying that bad things happen to people so they can grow spiritually and morally. However, when you state that: "through competition and striving the good people may rise to the highest of the high and the bad people may enter among the lowest of the low." What is your definition of high and low? Are they a place, like heaven or hell or is it a state of being, either here or in the after-life? Can others recognize that the low are getting lower and the good are getting higher, oris it a spiritual thing only recognized by God? Could you help me to understand that. Also, do you think that Divine wisdom can only be achieved by Disaster? That is a little depressing? The thought gives me a feeling of empending doom because I want to grow spiritually and morally. Amy | ||
| Ahmet Armagan New member Username: carmagan Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Amy-- I might have expressed it wrong. Of course I don't think that Divine wisdom can only be achieved by Disaster. It is just one of the ways. About the other point that you raised, I could say this: Through the light of belief, human being rises to the highest of the high and acquires a value worthy of Paradise. And through the darkness of unbelief, he/she descends to the lowest of the low and falls to a position fit for Hell. For belief connects the human to the All-Glorious Maker; it is a relation. Thus, the human acquires value by virtue of the Divine art and inscriptions of the dominical Names which become apparent in him/her through belief. Unbelief severs the relation, and due to that severance the dominical art is concealed. His/Her value then is only in respect to the matter of his/her physical being. And since this matter has only a transitory, passing, temporary animal life, its value is virtually nothing. Let's explain this mystery by means of a comparison: For example: among the human’s arts, the value of the materials used and that of the art are entirely different. Sometimes they are equal, sometimes the material is more valuable, and sometimes it happens that five dollars' worth of art is to be found in material like iron worth five cents. Sometimes, even, an antique work of art is worth a million while the material of which it is composed is not worth five cents. If such a work of art is taken to the antiques market and ascribed to a brilliant and accomplished artist of former times, and announced mentioning the artist and that art, it may be sold for a million dollars. Whereas if it is taken to the scrap-dealers, the only price received will be for the five cents' worth of iron. Thus, the human being is such an antique work of art of Almighty God. He/She is a most subtle and graceful miracle of His power whom He created to manifest all his Names and their inscriptions, in the form of a miniature specimen of the universe. If the light of belief enters his/her being, all the meaningful inscriptions on him/her may be read. As one who believes, he/she reads them consciously, and through that relation, causes others to read them. That is to say, the dominical art in the human being becomes apparent through meanings like, “I am the creature and artefact of the All-Glorious Maker. I manifest His mercy and munificence.” That is, belief, which consists of being connected to the Maker, makes apparent all the works of art in the human being. The human being's value is in accordance with that dominical art and by virtue of being a mirror to the Eternally Besought One. In this respect insignificant human becomes God’s addressee and a guest of the Sustainer worthy of Paradise superior to all other creatures. However, should unbelief, which consists of the severance of the relation, enter human’s being, then all those meaningful inscriptions of the Divine Names are plunged into darkness and become illegible. For if the Maker is forgotten, the spiritual aspects which look to Him will not be comprehended, they will be as though reversed. The majority of those meaningful sublime arts and elevated inscriptions will be hidden. The remainder, those that may be seen with the eye, will be attributed to lowly causes, nature, and chance, and will become utterly devoid of value. While they are all brilliant diamonds, they become dull pieces of glass. His/Her importance looks only to his/her animal, physical being. And as we said, the aim and fruit of his/her physical being is only to pass a brief and partial life as the most impotent, needy, and grieving of animals. Then it decays and departs. See how unbelief destroys human nature, and transforms it from diamonds into coal. I hope this is enlightening.  Ahmet | ||
| amy Junior Member Username: amylc Post Number: 18 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
So If I chose to believe in God, I will manifest God and consciously seek and see the divine. If I choose not to believe in God, then God and the divine will not exist for me and I am reduced to only the physical which is temporary. Another Question. Where does the "belief" come from. Is it "Free will" or just a conscious decision by a person to believe in something they cannot see because it offers hope in a seemingly futile existance? Is "belief" a gift of the Holy Spirit? Is a person chosen by God and given the gift of belief? | ||
| Ahmet Armagan New member Username: carmagan Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Amy-- Sorry for the late response. I could write a lot but I'll keep it short. Belief is a light that GOD instils instantaneously in the hearts of those people that He wishes- that is, after they have used their will power. Much more could be said but I kept it short. | ||
| amy Junior Member Username: amylc Post Number: 23 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Ahamet, If you could say more, why do you chose to keep it short? I ask because I really do need more explanation. It sounds to me that I am not responsible. It is God's choice. I struggle with my belief in God, does that mean that God has not chosen me to manifest his will or feel his presence? If that is true, then I am not responsible for my salvation. God is. Certainly a loving God would not choose to damn me for my lack of faith because faith is something he chose not to give me. | ||
| little soldier New member Username: carmagan Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Amy- First of all, I changed my nickname to little soldier. Secondly, I am sorry for the late response. I just needed to ask a few friends to give you the best response. As for the topic: Like I said before, we have to use our will power for GOD to send faith our hearts. A good example for this could be as follows. Imagine a sunny day. The sun is shining brightly outside. It wants to get into every home. It comes to the door and window of every house because it wants to get inside. If you don't open your shades and your door it won't be able to get inside. The sun doesn't limit its light to anyone because it wants to enlighten everyone. But only the people who open their doors and their window shades are able to benefit from the light of the sun. That is, GOD sends his faith to everyone. If we don't open our hearts to that, it will just bounce back. You need to open your heart to be able to get that faith. | ||
| amy Junior Member Username: amylc Post Number: 24 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
That sounds beautiful,very metaphoric, but somewhat useless if one needs tangible, concrete examples in order to have faith. I am much like Thomas in the bible. If I could ask Jesus to show me his wounds and I could see them. Faith could happen for me. If I begin to doubt, If I could ask God for a tangible sign and instantly recieve one, I am sure my faith would be restored. If the light of God's faith is shed on everything and everyone,then why do the faithful, certain of their rightousness, cause so much suffering, death and destruction? Note the Moslems, Christians and Jews. Perhaps the faithful, should question their faith and it's origin and their own definition of God. A starting place would be to conduct a personal inventory to check ones own manifestations because it would be resonable to assume that if one believes that God is the father of love and all things good, then Gods fruit would be love and all things good. A person could see love and good manifest in their life. If God is the father of evil and hell then evil and hell would be Gods fruit. If a person sees the manifestation of evil and hell in their life, then perhaps one should question their belief-definition of God. I constantly see people define God and his will according to different scriptures that people have chosen to label Holy. By doing so, they point out differences and create tensions that are unneccessary because God probably chose to show himself according to each cultures ability to grasp the concept of him-wich would explain the differences in the religions. Just because I am a westerner, raised with Christianity and the Bible, does not mean that I am more or less deserving to feel Gods presence than a person who studies the Koran. Actually, the more caught up I get in my religion and the more pious I allow myself to become, the harder it is for me to feel God's presence. I actually feel more anger. | ||
| amy Junior Member Username: amylc Post Number: 25 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Please, people, do not take my above post personally. I am just voicing my own confusion and frustration, and I do not mean to belittle or offend anyone. In fact, I welcome return posts and different opinions because I might learn something. Especially from you, little soldier, because I like the way you write. | ||
| little soldier Junior Member Username: carmagan Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Amy, If you received regular mails from a person for some time, you would have a good opinion that there is a real person who is sending you those mails. If you received hundreds of mails from that one person through the course of many years, you probably would have very little doubt about the existence of that person. From the very first human being, Adam, throughout the course of history, tens of thousands of decent, righteous and trustworthy people have come to every part of this world and their message was always the same: That there is only one GOD. That there is a Day of Judgement where we will be accounted for what we did or did not do in this life. And that as a result of that day, we will either go to Heaven or Hell. They said other things as well(in need of that time and place) but their core message was always the same. They said that they were bringing this message from GOD and that they did not want anything for themselves in return. Of course we can choose not to belive in any of those people and continue to be suspicious but that would not get us anywhere. If believing was that easy and obvious we would not have the reward in the Hereafter for choosing to go on the righeous path. Like you said people from all religions do nasty things in the name of GOD but that should not mean that GOD is telling people to commit those acts. If there are a few bad doctors around, that doesn’t mean that the whole science of medicine is evil. I believe that if we honestly search for GOD, he will eventually show us the right path. Maybe I didn’t address your concerns but we are all searching. I’ll give my email adress in case you or anybody else wants to share opinions: carmagan@hotmail.com | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 26 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Much of what you write is true and some of it is open to different interpretation--such as judgement day and hereafter. However that is religion that I do not want to get into right now. I want to ask you this: How can you tell that you are in the presence or recieving a message from God? Is the manifestation of a positive action your proof that you are indeed recieving messages from God? | ||
| Hanson Street Member Username: hansonstreet22 Post Number: 40 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
"By doing so, they point out differences and create tensions that are unneccessary because God probably chose to show himself according to each cultures ability to grasp the concept of him-wich would explain the differences in the religions. Just because I am a westerner, raised with Christianity and the Bible, does not mean that I am more or less deserving to feel Gods presence than a person who studies the Koran. Actually, the more caught up I get in my religion and the more pious I allow myself to become, the harder it is for me to feel God's presence. I actually feel more anger. "-amy Amy first of all, I think it's good that you voice your opinion like you said... and your frustrations and confusions. That's good because that is why this site is here for like everyone to learn. I definitely come here all the time when i have questions about stuff and i do all the time. I also consider myself like Thomas. BUT, i am going to nicely completely disagree with prettty much everythign you just said. I actually thought that exact belief or something pretty close to that before i actually looked through the quran. There are some very peculiar verses i found in there that im pretty sure you won't find in the bible and i dont think God would say. ( That is if you believe that God showed himself to different cultures with these different relgions) Now... here are some verses from the Quran amy ... just for you to think about and then you might change your mind about that opinion. ... the Quran has many things similar in the Old Testament... which may be a reason as to why you gained your theory or idea that your brought up... but remember that Mohammed (correct me if im wrong in saying this caues i could be but im pretty sure this is correct) claimed that an angel from God delivered this text to him (the Quran) and also that Mohammed also claimed to be illiterate so anyways keep that in mind when your reading this ... and read all of them if you want to understand the point im making... Surah 3 Family of imran 3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). 30. "On the Day when every soul will be confronted with all the good it has done, and all the evil it has done, it will wish there were a great distance between it and its evil. But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself. And Allah is full of kindness to those that serve Him." 33. Allah did choose Adam and Noah, the family of Abraham, and the family of 'Imran above all people,- 36. When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!"- and Allah knew best what she brought forth- "And no wise is the male Like the female. I have named her Mary, and I commend her and her offspring to Thy protection from the Evil One, the Rejected." 37. Right graciously did her Lord accept her: He made her grow in purity and beauty: To the care of Zakariya was she assigned. Every time that he entered (Her) chamber to see her, He found her supplied with sustenance. He said: "O Mary! Whence (comes) this to you?" She said: "From Allah. for Allah Provides sustenance to whom He pleases without measure." 45. Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to Allah. 46. "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." 47. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is! 48. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, 50. "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. 51. "'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" 52. When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah.s helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims. ... i dont believe the Bible says anythign about Jesus's disciples claiming to be Muslims also (correct me if i'm wrong again) the religion of Islam hadn't even come out yet ...? 67. Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah.s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah. ... now if God sent this to the Muslim's then Why would he lie to the Christians? 73. "And believe no one unless he follows your religion." Say: "True guidance is the Guidance of Allah. (Fear ye) Lest a revelation be sent to someone (else) Like unto that which was sent unto you? or that those (Receiving such revelation) should engage you in argument before your Lord?" Say: "All bounties are in the hand of Allah. He granteth them to whom He pleaseth: And Allah careth for all, and He knoweth all things." 84. Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)." 85. If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah., never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good). ... that verse right there pretty much makes the theory impossible because ... if you haven't noticed from these scriptures it points out harsh punishments for people who don't follow Islam 118. O ye who believe! Take not into your intimacy those outside your ranks: They will not fail to corrupt you. They only desire your ruin: Rank hatred has already appeared from their mouths: What their hearts conceal is far worse. We have made plain to you the Signs, if ye have wisdom. 151. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of wrongdoers. ... amy do you think our habitation is the Fire? 178. Let not the Unbelievers think that our respite to them is good for themselves: We grant them respite that they may grow in their iniquity: But they will have a shameful punishment. 196. Let not the strutting about of the Unbelievers through the land deceive thee: Surah 5 Table Spread 51. O ye who believe! Take not Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friend is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. ... that is about as straight-forward as you can get right there... according to the Quran we are wrongdoing folk who are to be friends with eachother but not the Muslims... Amy i hope you have read this intently and understand the important differences between the Muslims and Christians. Now for Jewish people ... i haven't looked as much into that religion i have the belief though that there religion is just pretty much part of the old testament.. .the torah ? The Jews have had just as mucha chance to believe in Jesus as we have and i also believe they the origin for Jews is also the same origin for christians... as in the same location... thus God didn't have to teach to different cultures ? i think that made sense ha | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 27 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Fundamentalism is dangerous in any religion. We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of wrongdoers. Have you ever had to be in the company of unbelievers and evil doers? Their habitation is the fire and hapless the abode of wrongdoers. When you start interpreting any holy book literally instead of in spirit, you will miss the meaning and miss the guidence and love. If you try to force your literal beliefs on others, you will cause great pain in the name of Christ and your lack of love will demonstrate the anti-christ. | ||
| Hanson Street Member Username: hansonstreet22 Post Number: 41 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
amy... I'm sorry if this comes off rude but did you read all of the text i sent you. Because first of all, if you did and if you are a christian there is no way you could possibly believe that the Christian God is the same guy who influenced the Quran. ...Surah 5 Table Spread 51. O ye who believe! Take not Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friend is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. ... did you read that? ... Please respond to that post? Don't search for something easier that i said that you find fault with... Tell me what your belief is on that verse from the Quran. What do you think that says about the Quran? Do you think the same God who influenced the Bible influenced that Quran still?... if yes, then why? now how should we interpret this? ... literally, figuratively, retardedly, or what. Plain and simple, i don't care how you look at that it clearly goes against the Bible. It clearly states that we christians are te wrongdoing folk. Honestly everyone is wrongdoing folk...but it quite clearly states to "take not christians or jews" (us)for friends... I wish i knew a better or nicer way to say this but I honestly think you have a pride issue that you need to work on. Now let's look at it. You brought up a theory in the possibility that the same God influenced different cultures in different ways bringing upon the religions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam... one of my first responses to that was thats a logical theory due to the fact that the 3 relgions have very common morals and values and ideas. Although I disagreed with the theory. I gave you points... which were basically self-explanatory. I didn't put a whole lot of effort explainining my point i just showed a significant amount of scriptures from the Quran that clearly contradicted scriptures of the Bible. Please answer this next question in your response... "Do you agree that there were clear contradictions with the Quran text i gave you and with the Bible? ... there should be no debate whatsoever on the issue that the religions are contradictory ... why would they be different religions if they didn't contradict eachother? Is that even possible? ... but no what you responded with is telling me that fundamentalism is dangerous in any religion. Instead of making such a vague accusation to me... i would love it if you interpreted this next verse from the Quran is the least fundamental way possible "We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of wrongdoers. " on your first try you... agreed with the second half of the verse that explains that wrongdoers habitation is the fire. Did you not? Well i would like you to try again and interepret the first half of that verse (non-fundamentally of course)?... you know the part about casting terror into the hearts of unbelievers... ya that part Now lets look at the logic in this situation. How is casting terror into the heart of somebody who doesn't believe in Allah going to do any good? (please answer that question because in my opinion its a really good one) Jesus taught to love your enemies. Now the way i interpret that is by not casting terror into their hearts. I interpret that by treating people, no matter who they are, the way you would want to be treated. Jesus also teaches not to be acquainted with fools. That does not contradict the first teaching mentioned. My take on these teachings is to be nice to anyone no matter who it is. If they are a fool, then i won't hang around them. I won't be mean to them if they come up to me. I'll try at least to treat them with respect because thats my interpretation on what the right thing to do is. I certainly will not cast terror into their hearts though. And i would bet my life that Jesus wouldn't want me casting terror into their hearts... that's not my job. Next question that i would love for you to answer... How do you think the Quran wishes that the terror be casted? Now I would hope that it was a nicely casted terror. I wouldhope that it is a minor terror maybe just yelling at them. Certainly not terrorism or anything like that. Maybe perhaps it was a mistranslation maybe it meant just to be mean to non-believers. now i would ask you again ... what good is that going to do? Please answer at least some of these questions before accusing me of anything... to save you time ill accuse myself... do you want to know what i am guilty of? I am guilty of not conveying my lesson to you in a nicer way. I definitely could have spent more time conveying it in a more positive way that displays no anger. I just hope that somewhere in there you might consider the POSSIBILITY that part of what i'm saying might be correct. I would bet money that Jesus would read my post and be able to convey it much better, but I'm sorry that I'm not perfect and am flawed. I do make mistakes I do admit to that. My other problems that i don't believe that were conveyed in this message to you are lets see... Judging ( i have a problem with judging people.. i automatically make first impressions and judgements on people and i need to work on that), i have a problem with a short temper( the bible clearly explains how harmful that can be) I need to work on that, I also have a pride issue... I don't like being corrected, yet when i am corrected i will admit what it is that i was incorrect on. Those are my main problems that i need to work on so please save yourself the typing on telling me what i need to work on... all i ask is that you answer the questions that i wanted you to answer.... last of all i have one more question for you to answer ... when you said "When you start interpreting any holy book literally instead of in spirit, you will miss the meaning and miss the guidence and love. If you try to force your literal beliefs on others, you will cause great pain in the name of Christ and your lack of love will demonstrate the anti-christ. " ... were you in any way insenuating that i was inforcing my beliefs on you? ... to my memory i believe that i told you "Now... here are some verses from the Quran amy ... just for you to think about and then you might change your mind about that opinion." When i said that i was not forcing my interpretations on you in any way... i said you might change your mind and hence me saying "for you to think about" as in... you interpret them any way you wish. | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 28 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
oh please, what does retardedly mean. You do not want to come off as mean, yet your whole disertation is loaded in sarcasm. I find it ironic that you would tell me that I have a pride issue. Second. If I were a moslem, I wouldn't hang around the Christians or Jews either. Look at their attitude. Look at the crusades. They have done plenty to prove the Qoran correct. Read your bible, there are plenty of war-like statements in it. Especially the old testament. The problem arises when people stick to letter of the law. They miss the message. That was a lot of Jesus's message and today that is why the insurgence are beheading people and attacking us.Jesus spoke out against interpreting the law without love and they crucified him. I am lucky that all I get is sarcasm. | ||
| SK Junior Member Username: skeith Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
I would also like to respond to Hanson's and Amy's messages. While the Quran may not be considered God's word (as in the Bible), it is clearly influenced by it. Culture is clearly influenced by scripture. Most religions include Jesus in their lineup of superstars and that is the very thing that invalidates them -- Jesus, himself said there is only one way. But to say Jesus and his teachings does not influence other religions is like saying that TV does not influence our culture. It does. To address Amy's concern: Would we call a doctor who found the cure for cancer an extreme fundamentalist because he believes in the cure? The truth is that if the Bible is true then there is a cure and people should believe it if they are certain of its truth. If I believed it, I would certainly tell my friends who had cancer about what I believe is the truth. Conviction isn't the problem, although attitude may be. The problem with the term 'fundamentalism' is that it has become a bad word for people that are on the extreme fringe. It doesn't mean that. There are people who interpret the Quran the way they want to and that is true for a lot of things. But there isn't one 'fundamentalist' view -- just things that we find distasteful considering our background and the culture that we participate in. I personally find it distasteful that a bunch of muslims would like to see me and my family dead and they believe that by killing us they will earn their way to heaven. But that isn't fundamentalist -- that is just plain stupid. And despite the references in the Quran, my guess is that they would believe what they believe regardless. | ||
| SK Junior Member Username: skeith Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
To clarify what I said above: "If I believed it, I would certainly tell my friends who had cancer about what I believe is the truth." means... if I believed in a cure for cancer I would certainly tell my friends what I believe to be the truth. | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 29 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
You know what you said about 'fundamentalism' being interpreted as people on the extreme fringe and that there isn't one fundamentalist view is correct in my case. From now on I will change my interpertation of fundamentalism. My objection is to those who use any book labeled holy as a reason to persecute others. The bible and the qoran are examples of two books that have been used to persecute. The bible was used for a justification for slavery, wife abuse, child abuse, etc. just as the Qoran is being used as a justification to kill Christians. Religious fanatasism is beyond love or reason and is counter to Christs message. There is one thing about telling someone what you think or know is the truth, such as the cure for cancer, and another to brow beat and persecute in order to force your truth on another. If the Holy book is used as justification for this kind of behavior it is a tool in the hands of an abuser. The truth is we are all powerless over anothers choices and the only people we can control is ourself and sometimes that is pretty hard. It is far better to attract than promote. | ||
| little soldier Junior Member Username: carmagan Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Amy- I don't know if I correctly understand your question but to the best of my knowledge, I could say this. I believe that if GOD left us solely to our devices, we would do a lot of nasty things and we probably would not do a lot of good. It is through holy books and prophets that GOD gives us the guide so that we can do good things and be good people. Something that came to my mind when I was thinking about your message. There are two kinds of prayers; literary prayer and working prayer. Literary prayer is the prayer that we all know. We pray with our tounges and/or hearts. The working prayer is when we work to achieve something that we want. By working, we are, by action, saying to GOD: O GOD, give me this that I am working for. It is this that makes the unfaithful succesful sometimes. It is because they work their arses off and by doing that they pray(without even being aware of it). So, now one might say that she/he prays for something, one way or the other and doesn't get. A short answer to that could be this: Imagine a sick child in a bed. A doctor comes to the child. The child says to the doctor, "O Doctor, give me that medicine next to the bed". The Doctor could do 3 things. Give that medicine to the child without taking into account whether or not that medicine is good for that child's sickness. Or, the doctor, knowing the child's sickness, could give the child another medicine. Or, the doctor would not give the child any medicine. The doctor may or may not accept the request of the child but one cannot say that the doctor didn't reply to child in any case. We all want somethings from GOD but we don't know if what we want will eventually be good or bad for us. So, we should always pray for the best for us from GOD and know that GOD ALWAYS replies back to us. About that verse from the quran that Hanson Street quoted: O ye who believe! Take not Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friend is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. I am in no way an expert of the quran but while I was at the university, a muslim guy had given me this explanation. He had said that a lot people, including muslims, misinterpret that verse. the same quran also allows muslim men to marry christian or jewish women. Those two verses would seem to contradict each other but his explanation is this: what the previous verse is trying to say is; don't adopt their religions(judaism and christianity) as your religion. he said that otherwise there are no restrictions on being friends with christians and jews. his explanation seemed logical to me but whether or not it satisfies you people, I don't know. Again my email adress: carmagan@hotmail.com | ||
| Hanson Street Member Username: hansonstreet22 Post Number: 42 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
"oh please, what does retardedly mean. You do not want to come off as mean, yet your whole disertation is loaded in sarcasm. I find it ironic that you would tell me that I have a pride issue. Second. If I were a moslem, I wouldn't hang around the Christians or Jews either. Look at their attitude. Look at the crusades. They have done plenty to prove the Qoran correct. Read your bible, there are plenty of war-like statements in it. Especially the old testament. The problem arises when people stick to letter of the law. They miss the message. That was a lot of Jesus's message and today that is why the insurgence are beheading people and attacking us.Jesus spoke out against interpreting the law without love and they crucified him. I am lucky that all I get is sarcasm. " please read your post and tell me if you answered one of the questios that i asked you to answer ... now please read a quote from the post that you responded to from me "Please answer at least some of these questions before accusing me of anything... to save you time ill accuse myself... do you want to know what i am guilty of? I am guilty of not conveying my lesson to you in a nicer way. I definitely could have spent more time conveying it in a more positive way that displays no anger. I just hope that somewhere in there you might consider the POSSIBILITY that part of what i'm saying might be correct. I would bet money that Jesus would read my post and be able to convey it much better, but I'm sorry that I'm not perfect and am flawed. I do make mistakes I do admit to that. My other problems that i don't believe that were conveyed in this message to you are lets see... Judging ( i have a problem with judging people.. i automatically make first impressions and judgements on people and i need to work on that), i have a problem with a short temper( the bible clearly explains how harmful that can be) I need to work on that, I also have a pride issue... I don't like being corrected, yet when i am corrected i will admit what it is that i was incorrect on. Those are my main problems that i need to work on so please save yourself the typing on telling me what i need to work on... all i ask is that you answer the questions that i wanted you to answer.... " ... thanks for accusing me anyways ... i already admitted to part of waht you accused me of and you didn't anwswer one of the questions in my proof either proving that you didnt read all of my post or proving that you did read all of it and was blind to the whole point of this forum (learning) and decided to make the main point of your post as accusing me of what i needed to work on ... when i already accused myself of the same things? ... at least i understand my pride problem? Maybe you dont think you have any problems? I can guarantee you're not perfect yourself ... as I can can guarantee that I'm not perfect but ya sorry for coming off as mean ... i did come off as mean and i shouldn't have and ill try to work on that but i just ask that you answer the questions in my first post ... all youahve to do is answer the questions ... accusing me will not do any good for me or you its simply a waste of time so can you please answer the questions that i asked you in my first post?... | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 30 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hanson Street--I do not read all of your posts. They are too long and rude. Amy | ||
| Hanson Street Member Username: hansonstreet22 Post Number: 43 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Alright Amy just pretend my name is Bob and haven't said anything to you yet and you have no idea who I am and what i believe... then can you answerthis question please cause i really want to know what you think about these questions... First of all, are you a Christian? Second of all, if you are a Christian do you still believe that the Christian God is the same guy who wrote the Quran after reading these verses? (there area few verses in here and please read them... 51. O ye who believe! Take not Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friend is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. 67. Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah.s (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah. As for those who are slain in the cause of God, he will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state: He will admit them to the Paradise he has made known to them" (Qur'an47:6)"When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly."(47:4) What confuses me is that Islam originated in 610 A.D? Apparently Mohommad was illiterate and the angel Gabriel came to him and told him the Quran and then Mohommad memorized what Gabriel told him and then told it to scribes to right it down. I just see it very possible that Mohommad read the Bible and then tweaked it because how could abraham be a muslim and jesus be a prophet of God... if the Bible was correct then Abraham lied in it and jesus also was a liar for claiming to be the son of God... so what is your opinion on this issue? ...or if amy doesn't answer this then somebdoy else please answer this | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 31 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Okay Bob, this is Amy. I believe in God, It depends on what your definition of a Christian is. Some religions would claim me and some would not. I still believe the same God is the God of the muslims and the God of the Christians and the God of the Jews. If Mohammad was illiterate, who read the Bible to him? Even if the Koran is wrong, it is no more wrong than the Bible, whose interpretations of interpretations was written after the catholic religion was formed. Even if Mohammed is corrupt it doesn't mean we are not all praying to the same God when we are praying in right mind. Mohammed could not be anymore currupt than the catholic church as far as I am concerned. Sounds like mohammed is also a good politician. Usually if one claims to be a Jew or Christian and befriends anyone of another religion, conversion is on their mind. Therefore; I think the Qoran is correct from a religious and political point of view to tell the muslims not to take Jews or Christians for friends because they are not tolerent and the Muslims may have to be circumsised and leave their people and families. Qur'an47:6) and ."(47:4) sounds like Mathew 5:10-12 and Isaih 59:15-18.To name only two. Although, there are many more scriptures about feeding and loving your enemies in the Bible. I do not know about the Quran, but I assume there are likewise scriptures. The Christ is the true son of God, but many Christian forget that the Christ lives in all of us. I am not willing to call Abraham, Jesus or Mohammed a lier. Books that people call holy are open to many criticisms and interpretations and with that I rest. Amy | ||
| Hanson Street Member Username: hansonstreet22 Post Number: 44 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hey amy its me bob... i feel like im stating the obvious here but a pretty significant belief that Christian's have that Muslim's and Jews don't have is the belief that Jesus is the son of God. " I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)." Now obvisouly what Jesus is saying here (in my opinion) is that you can't go to heaven if you don't believe in me. He's making it a single path to heaven. One way... He is the way according to him. Now if you're a Jew you obviously don't think that, you would think that Jesus was either lying or just crazy ... because those are the only other options i see if you don't believe he's God. The muslims on the other hand have a different opinion then both the Jews and the Christians. They believe that Allah sent down Jesus with his gospels. Jesus was born of the virgin mary, was a prophet for Allah, and also they believe that Jesus did not die on the cross. They believe that Allah took him up and htat somebdoy else like him died on the cross? (i need to look more into that but here is a verse from the quran on that subject) “"And for their unbelief, and their uttering against Mary a grave false charge, and for their saying, 'We killed the messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messiah of God"…yet they did not slay him, neither crucified him, only a likeness of that was shown to them. Those who are at variance concerning him are surely in doubt the following of conjecture; and they did not kill him of certainty…no indeed; God raised him up to Him; God is Almighty, Allwise. There is not one of the people of the book but will assuredly believe him before his death, and on the Resurrection Day he will be a witness against them." (An-Nissa 4:156-159)” Here is a verse where the Quran disagrees with the trinity… People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth. The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word (Fulfilment of his word (Fulfilment of His command, through the word "Be", for the creation of Jesus) that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him (was given life by God). So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three'. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian. All three religions have great similarity because they are all based on one truth. Whether it be the Jew's truth that there is only one God yahweh, the christians truth with the holy trinity (father, son, holy spirit), or the muslim truth where Allah is the only God and mummamed is his messenger. There is obviously contradictory beliefs with these three religions whichi know you have to agree with... but there is only one way according to the Christian belief. I guess my next question to you (if you have read this far) is do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the only way to heaven? | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 32 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Bob, Like I said before, I believe that the Christ is the only son of God and the Christ lives in everyone. I will add that Jesus was able to demonstrate the Christ perfectly and Jesus said that the things that he does, ye can do better. Amy | ||
| Paul Ehlke New member Username: paul Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hi Amy, You are right in saying Christ lives in everyone... however, that is only if one believes in Him. Jesus said, "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels." -Luke 9:26 | ||
| Paul Ehlke New member Username: paul Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2004 Rating: N/A |
by the way, this is the way I see the world: Everyone will always be different on their own. For example, about Islam in Indonesia, the men and women are allowed to pray in the same room seperated with a bedsheet between them. In Iran, that is forbidden as they must have seperate rooms. But they both pray to the same Allah. It goes to show our background, culture and ethics create who we are. Why does one marry and have children and the other chooses to stay single? Why is one a vegetarian, and the other not? Why are most big cities Democrat, and most rurals Repulican? This whole world has people of different backgrounds saying I am right, you are wrong. This is the right way, that is the wrong way. Even for small things on what to eat, how to have relationships, what to wear, etc. It's so complex, too much to bear. But when it comes to Jesus, whom speaks to all people, dies for all people, loves all people, he's my guy! Seeing the different conscience in each people, its hard to say one person is right, and the other person is wrong. We all have different ideas from our different backgrounds. Apostle Paul says, It is not good works that will save you. Prophet Isaiah says, Righteousness is like a bucket of filthy rags in the eyes of God. It starts to make sense to me. I see that in this world, one man's goodness is another's disagreement. Bin Laden thinks he's doing a good thing, but Bush disagrees thinking he's doing a good thing hunting him down and Kerry disagrees... and it goes on. I come to agree with the Apostles now. who's good works will save you and deliver you to heaven? nobody's!! it makes more sense now, why we all need a savior, jesus. jesus is the only guy who's declared himself as our saviour. he's also the only guy who's performed hundreds of miracles. He's the only guy who's gravesite doesn't exist. Surely, Jesus is from God! Surely, I will listen to what he says is 'good'. | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 33 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Paul, Thanks for sharing. I find your point of view interesting. I agree with your outlook of the world and I agree with some of your thought on Jesus; However, I think miracles are probably performed everyday. I am willing to say Jesus is the way, but I am not willing to say Jesus is the only way. I also like the teachings of Jesus much better than the apostle Paul. Amy | ||
| Hanson Street Member Username: hansonstreet22 Post Number: 45 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
"I am willing to say Jesus is the way, but I am not willing to say Jesus is the only way."- amy " I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)." - Jesus How do you interpret what jesus was meaning when he said this? I'm sorry but i just don't see how there can be more than one way if he claims to be the only way? If Jesus meant for there to be another way wouldn't he have said ... " I am a way a truth and a life anyone who comes to the father could come through me? "?... but he said "I am THE way" ... the is a definite article thus there is only one way... | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 34 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
I think that Jesus was manifesting the Christ. Interpretation: The Christ is the way, the truth and the light. No one comes through the father except through the Christ. Jesus demonstrated the the Christ and the person can be one. The Christ spirit is in me; therefore, I am one with the Father and the Son. This interpretation can be compatible with the Trinity. God is the Father, the Son and The Holy Ghost. Amy | ||
| Maria New member Username: riajoy Post Number: 3 Registered: 10-2004 Rating: N/A |
Jesis was talking more about his time, what was going on then. He needed to get attention to get people to listen. Techinically everyone that goes on to this website to share views and to give help in understanding the word of God, Jesus or the "bible" is a prophet. A prophet was also a teacher, we are all trying to teach each other our own individual ideas on what was said or ment by what was said. Jesus was trying to undo the horror that the Synagog had become. The rules were hard with no conditions to help the human condition. Once when Jesus was at a Synagog and did a healing, the church elders got angry and called Jesus a blasmopher because he was "working" on the sabath. He asked what the elder would do if his mule got stuck in a ditch. Would the elder leave the animal to die in the ditch because it was the sabath? The elder stated that the rules allowed for the animal to be saved. Yet there was no such allowance for a human. Because it was the sabath Jesus was supposed to let the inflicted be and go to them on another day. This was stupid, to use my own feelings, and unnecessary. To become liberated and find a way that allowed for medicine to be given or for someone to at least seek help on the sabath the people had to go to Jesus. He was the way to salvation out of pain and missery. He was at that time the only way to get help. Today we are supposed to be more enlightened and not just smarter, but we know that people are suposed to come before animals. One of the other things stated by Jesus and by the bible is that god is everywhere and within everything, Jesus liked to have surmons outside in the glory of god for that reason. We were suppode to grow up and understand that we are all children of god, a god that does not need a home. His home is within us all. The churches of today are getting as worped as they were in his time. "Love one another as I have loved you" That is what Jesus told his appostles on the last day. He only went to the synagog to meet and help others, even he believed god was not within the halls because of all the horror done in gods name. True love can only begin when we stop trying to be better than our neighbors and instead actually help each other without doing it to change each other. Jesus was more accepting than the churches of today, more than most good christians than I have ever met. I once met someone on a bus on a Sunday, I was going to work, she to church. She asked me when I gave time to honor god, I then asked why I had to go to a church to do this. I stated that if I went out into a field and prayed or just enjoyed the glory of life all around myself then gave a silent thanks to the creator, wasent that where he would be, in his own creation enjoying the dayas I myself would then be doing. The woman walked away stating she would pray for my soul. I told her that if I had been praying all these years yet needed her to get gods attention then he was a poor god as far as I was conserned. I really hate people that believe that their prayer will be heard for me before my own would ever be heard. I find people that make demands to "help" me by praying for me to be missing the point of what god tried to telll us. There was another time I was walking along minding my own busind=ess when a man came up to me and saked me what I believed Jesus would be doing today if he were alive. I replied that Jesus was a carpenter first and if he were alive today and living in a city like Worchester then he would be up working on the homes that were empty and falling downfrom disuse. He would put his knowledge to work to help the masses of homeless find a home not bothering innocent people walking around. The man ran off, I called him back trying to find out what he thought Jesus would be doing in alive today. The man ran faster. I have found that these people really don't want to talk, discuss what lives within the hearts of many people they just want to shove their ideas upon others and demand that one believe as they do. The sad part of all this is amy, I see you being of this sort. When amy soed not like the idea of others she refutes what was said and shoves bible quotes at us changing words to suit her interpatation. You are not allone in this, most of todays christians to the same. I no longer wish to be called a christian for this very reason. All religions, from christianity to budisim to ebven the koran holds words attributed to god. They all have important information within but no are right and noen are wrong. If someone can live a good life, giving of themselves unselfishly without needing recornition or "pay back" then one is trying to live up to the expectations of god. If I do someting for someone, a stranger, and they ask how they can repay me I tell them that at some time in the future they will meet a needy person, they should do something for that person to repay mty kindness. I need no one to repay my kindness directly but I like the idea that by helping one person I am helping many others I will never meet. I feel that in doing this I am giving to god and helping others to do the same wether they realize it or not. I don't run around telling people what they should and shouldn"t do, I just suggest that if one has the moment and the resources to give freely that one should, I don't tell them that they are preforming acts of god, I just encourage them to find it within themselves to help a stranger, and if they do it once because I helped them then still they are working for the same reason I am. To bring hope and love to someone for no other reason than it is the right thing to do. | ||
| Ryan Archer Member Username: theleastofthese Post Number: 72 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
"...yet your whole disertation is loaded in sarcasm. I find it ironic that you would tell me that I have a pride issue. " ~Amy SO you're saying that anyone who makes a sarcastic statement has an issue with pride? Pretty broad statement - pride is not necessarily involved with sarcasm... "the Bible, whose interpretations of interpretations was written after the catholic religion was formed." - Amy WHAT are you talking about? Where is your "proof" of that - a copy of each of Gospels has been found that predates the Catholic church. As early as 60 AD, just a little over 20 years after Jesus went up to the Father. AND, just because that's the earliest one found, does NOT mean it was the first one written, but simply that that is the earliest one that's been found. "... but many Christian forget that the Christ lives in all of us." ~Amy Again, WHERE is your Biblical proof for that? The Bible certainly does not say that anywhere in any translation. The Holy Spirit comes to live in us, God's new chosen temples, when we choose to believe in Jesus and His promises. That's it, other than that, God is not living in anyone. And that's Biblical. "Second. If I were a moslem, I wouldn't hang around the Christians or Jews either. Look at their attitude. Look at the crusades. They have done plenty to prove the Qoran correct." ~Amy Ummm. WOW Amy, that's a pretty amazing statement. According to your logic, you're saying that all WHITE people are evil and hate Jews and anyone that is not white because of what Hitler did - because you're saying that ALL Christians are responsible for what a SMALL GROUP of "Christians" did several hundred years ago. THINK ABOUT IT. Those were CATHOLICS (and just a group of them), they did what they chose to do, they are not Christianity as a whole (not even Catholicism as a whole), they chose to do the crusades, but are YOU guilty for your neighbor's crime? Your son or daughter's crime? Your husband's crime? ABSOLUTELY NOT - you have nothing to do with it, though you are in the same family. So stop blaming Christians everywhere for what ONE SMALL GROUP of morons did several hundred years ago of their own free will. It is unjust, unwise, and completely wrong. | ||
| Ryan Archer Member Username: theleastofthese Post Number: 73 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
"All religions, from christianity to budisim to ebven the koran holds words attributed to god. They all have important information within but no are right and noen are wrong." ~maria WHO says that none are right and none are wrong? YOU? That's a pretty bold declaration, and where is your proof that none of them are wrong? They ALL say different things; HENCE, only ONE can be right about God. God is not anything you want Him to be. Just like you are not a quadripeligic elf with chronic bad breath and a dog named Rusty living in a shack in Vermont with the Tooth Fairy. BUT WAIT, isn't that true because I want to believe it? OF COURSE NOT, hence, you are only one way, you are you, you cannot be anything else, you cannot be whatever I or anyone else wants to believe you are. The FACT remains that you are you. In the same way, God is God, He a specific personality and a specific temperament, and specific heart for people, etc. He is God and He is who He is, NOT what anyone wants to believe He is. Surely this is fairly straightforward and irrefutable. As well, how can you prove, or at the very least, provide credible evidence citing Scripture IN CONTEXT, that the Bible is not right? | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 35 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Maria, we really do agree more than when disagree. Ryan: Please do not attack when you disagree. I do not have the time nor inclination to read your entire posts. It is too long and rude. Also, when I skim through it I noticed you are adding to my interpretations Please claim your own thoughts. I will note that: We do not have any works by Jesus. Only works of people who watched Jesus. Monks interpreted the interpretations of the scriptures. We have no interpretation in the language it was originally written and Language changes. Do you remember when gay meant happy? Amy | ||
| Paul Ehlke New member Username: paul Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2004 Rating: N/A |
do you see now how you are disagreeing with each other. this is my point. no one will come to agree, even on Christ's words. Consider this thought. In heaven, it is pure and clean. Angels are its citizens. There's not a drop of evil in God's Almighty Kingdom. Now, do you think God will let you in heaven? If you yourself already know you are dirty with sin, why would God let you inside his pure kingdom? Do you declare yourself worthy to walk among Angels? Jesus is THE only way, because He is the only one who declares to have washed us clean from sin. You simply need to believe this because good works alone cannot erase your sins. (After through research myself on various religions, I find Jesus to be my only hope for salvation.) I have nothing against other so-called prophets, except for the fact that they take away what Jesus did and add what they think is just. | ||
| Paul Ehlke New member Username: paul Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2004 Rating: N/A |
by the way, amy is right about some of your answers being too long... make them brief and straight to the point. Jesus was always brief with his answers. also, i've learned that critical answers are hardly effective these days. the world itself is plenty negative. speak the truth in love. | ||
| Paul Ehlke New member Username: paul Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2004 Rating: N/A |
and amy, it's up to you who's works you want to believe. the gospel was written by christ's own disciples. the quran was written over 100 years after muhammed's death. are translations by written word or spoken word changed easily? would God himself allow his truth to be changed? i wouldn't worry about this anyway, but about the word as we know it today. | ||
| amy Member Username: amylc Post Number: 36 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Well taken. We got off the subject of why innocent people suffer. My thought is that I agree with Little soldier about the need for the soul to grow, but Beware of resigning oneself to suffering. It is also important to watch what seeds one sews and to do self inventory. Especially, in painful moments because most pain is self inflicted motivated by selfishness. Once one recognizes the motivation, God can remove the defect if requested; thus, the soul grows and ones life changes. Rebirth! Amy | ||
| Charles Koh New member Username: holmes Post Number: 2 Registered: 03-2005 Rating: N/A |
The phrase "Innocent people suffer" is an over generalization. For not all innocent people suffer. Innocent does not mean 'not evil', for the Original Sin is the sin of not knowing(or ignorance) of Man's Divine Sonship and Origin. Suffering because it stems from ignorance of their Divine Origin. "Do ye not know that ye are all gods?". And the bible said God's true identity is "I AM", meaning the I AM in every person who is aware of himself. The bible said man has 'sinned', but the churches have taken that too literally as 'evil'. To sin, according to bible scholars and philosophers, actually means "to miss the mark", meaning to miss the point that we are all of Divine Origin, the Son of God. Innocent people suffer because of misuse of their power. They misuse it by fear (which attracts the very thing they fear, since the creative power of God in man works by attracting what we focus on), lack of faith, resisting evil (spending their focus on evil), and misuse of their creative imagination by focusing on negatives and lack. Until man becomes awake like Jesus and Buddha who are awakened with the knowledge of their true Divine Identity and Origin, we shall all remain as the Prodigal Son who experiences 'a hell of suffering and lack', who 'ran away from the Father and Home(heaven)'. Furthermore, many reknowned bible scholars believe that the bible is the story of man's search for his Divinity. And the events in the bible are merely metaphors. Why did the Jews, upon asking Jesus about being the Son of God, and Jesus replied with a short and dramatic "I AM", and the Jews fell on the ground upon hearing that. And they arise to ask again. This is merely a metaphor of man, in the darkness of ignorance, with the torch of inquiry, searching for who the Son of God is, and the Bible's answer is that the Son of God is what you call I AM. In another part of the bible, it said tell the people of Israel, God's true identity(name) is "I AM". Yet people are still blind to that and worshipping God on the outside and thinking they are separated from God, and assuming that the only way to reach god is thru someone called Jesus or Buddha, as they think Jesus and Buddha are divine and special and we are not. Look at it this way, if everyone in this world is awakened/enlightened of their true divine identity as the sons of god, we would hurt no one, we would not commit any evil against anyone, and we would not reject ourself (which causes all kinds of evil such as condemnation, misuse of our power, etc). So what we have for centuries is man, being the prodigal son, has taken his portion of the power of God, and misusing it out of his own ignorance of his true self. And yet he searches for a God outside of himself in the form of Jesus or Buddha or other people, while all the while Buddha claimed he is merely an 'awakened(enlightened/perfected) man" who knows his true Divine identity and oneness with Perfection, and Jesus claimed the same "I and the Father(pefection) are One" and "do ye not know ye are all gods"? | ||
| amy Intermediate Member Username: amylc Post Number: 115 Registered: 06-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thank you Charles. |
